Since December 25th Songpainter, Sign Music by Sign People has had 16 copies requested. That's a pretty low response since thousands and thousands of sign professionals visit here everyday and have watched us organize this for the last 18 months right here on the Letterville Bullboard.

Something is wrong.

Songpainter is a music CD of 12 original songs by working sign professionals. The music is crystal clear, and we have been told by everyone who has obtained a copy the musical content is absolutely wonderful.

Everyone working to bring this first ever of its kind music CD has invested hundreds of dollars worth of time or actual expense with no expectation of monetary reward. This has been a labor of love to you for a profession they love.

16 requests in 45 days from a community of 7000 regeistered shops and a several hundred thousand sign shops in the world that regularly lurk here is a huge slap in the face to those that have worked so hard. By not responding, the message is loud and clear.

--------------------------------
We even have shops that ask us to send them a CD and "invoice" them. When someone asks that among other things, we know there is a misconception of what Songpainter is and what we are doing.
-------------------------------

Songpainter is being used as charity fund raising tool. The idea is to get some money in the Letterville Community Charity Account to use to preserve, protect, and help mankind by giving back to those in need from ALL those in the sign profession, and especially Letterville.
-------------------
Who organized Songpainter?

Dave Draper took the lead role in the project. The job was up for grabs, but there were no takers.
--------------------
Is Dave Draper part of the www.letterhead.com business?

No. Dave & Cindy Draper own Draper the Signmaker in Bloomington Illinois USA. He is also free lance writer for Sign Builder Illustrated magazine.
--------------

Does Dave Draper know Steve and Barb Shortreed, the owners of this web site?

Yes. The Draper's and the Shortreed's have attended many of the same Letterhead meets and the Shortreeds even stopped by the Draper house on one of their many road trips. We have had many discussions about what this music CD should be used for. Both Steve and Dave have musical hobby intrests.
---------------------

Was there ever another intent for a music CD?

Yes. Dave Draper wanted to be the first ever to make a 12 song CD containing original music about the sign profession, with him being the sole artist on the album. He wanted it to sell as a commercial entity, sort of like writing a book on sign design for commercial sell.
-------------------------------

What stopped him from doing the above?

The lack of money stopped him, and no investors.
It costs a tremendous amount of money to create a music CD as opposed to writing a book.

--------------------------------

Who helped Songpainter become a reality?

Mark Fair coined the title.
Joe Rees, Dave Ginley and Dave Draper contributed music.
John Deaton made the artwork for the cover
Pierre professionaly mastered the music at his music studio in Montanna ( Makin' Tracks )
Steve and Barb Shortreed allow the project to be advertised and promoted on the Letterhead.com web site.

All the above sign professionals have musical hobby interests(professional In Mark Fair's case as he is a published songwriter and performs in a band on a regular basis.

-------------------

Who can be part of Songpainter?

YOU ALL ARE A PART OF THE SONGPAINTER PROJECT!

Yes you have a voice in this...that's right you who are reading this right now! You got to vote on the title and get to be part of deciding where the money goes to help mankind! You can request a CD to become an active part.

----------------------------

Is there going to be another CD, as in Songpainter TOO?

Yes, and we are already working on it!
-----------------------------

Can I contribute music to Songpainter?

Yes! The music you send has to be original, professionally recorded, song content has to be about some aspect of the sign business, and you have to be a working part of the sign industry, which covers a lot of ground. (vinyl, neon, LED, signpainting, digital printing, designer, yada yada yada.

----------------------------
Do you (Songpanter Group) keep the rights to the music?
NO! Its YOUR music, you keep all rights. You give us permission to use it on the collection for charity fund rasing only...nothing more.

-----------------------------

How many copies of Songpainter are there?

50! Why 50? because they cost over $8.00 to produce and package and there have been no donations by any giant sign corporate entities to
front the money for 1000's to be made.

Massed produced, these CD's could cost $3.00 each all things considered, but of course one has to order 1000,s and 1000's.

-------------------
Do we (Songpainter Project Group)need a coporate sponsor?

It would sure help! We need some big bucks to get the copies manufactured, a web site of our own with secure credit card acceptance, and big guns to promote Songpainter.

If you have more questions, please post below.

If you have a copy of Songpainter, Please do your part to help promote it. Your testimony of the quality of the music and the artist's creative spirit is the only thing we can hang our hats on right now.

Thanks everyone!

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]

I think it was a great idea, as for the lack of support....I'm at a loss for an explanation...some people are just weird I guess.

Thank you for the brief history of Songpainter.

I read your post twice, and in your short story I found no information about the price and where to order. Also, I might add that posting a couple of tracks or maybe playing a couple as background music to the BB would be nice as well.

You know I never run out and buy a CD before listening to the group anyway, And musicians always have to promote their music, so why would this be any different. If I like the music I'll buy it.

If it's for just charity sake then I'll just send in the money to Steve & Barb.

You may have posted info on this and maybe a few tracks before, but posts come and go quickly around here, and not everyone reads them all.

I liked the track from Joe Rees about letterville but I've never heard any of the others.

Do I hear Letterville Radio Station, WLBB Radio Canada, Your on the line caller, what can I play for you?

Well gee, I do a lot of buiss. that way, not cause I want to be difficult or take advantage of anybody (just a common practise for my buiss.) I'm fine with "sending you a check" Dave, and I will!

The other thing I wish to suggest is in line with what Bob said, posts come and go, not everyone is reading each and every one.

Why don't you talk to Steve&Barb about putting up a "banner ad" instead of trying to make everyone feel bad???

Sorry Dave, but I found your post to be a bit negative in that sence.

To everyone who has received it so far and/or logged their support, your response has been invaluable. This is a total grass-roots project that will take all the continued good will you can muster, to reach its potential.

Bob, till some kind of banner can be established, here is the link to the sound clips and order form. I'll repost it anytime I hear of someone needing it, and, taking a cue from Draper's signature line, I added a live link to my signature as well - click on me any time.

I'm finding the increasingly devalued Canadian dollar against the American dollar very upsetting. I realize it's nothing that you or I can do anything about but when I am faced with coughing up $35 to purchase a single cd I have to think especially when I can go down to Walmart and buy 3 popular cd's for that amount. Admittedly, I wouldn't enjoy them anywhere near as much. Still paying a huge premium of more than 50% because of the lousy exchange rate for things like Letterville residency, SignCraft and Sign Business subscriptions and anything else that we want to purchase from across the line is a little grating. End of my political rant!

If it were as simple as a credit card order I would have done it on the first day the cd was available but I realize that getting set up with a credit card is not a simple or inexpensive matter.

We are in a instant gratification society with so many options thrust in our face by merchants making it easy for us to buy something on impulse with easy terms that I think we have become lazy in making an effort to acquire something the old fashioned way.

Anyway back to the CD. I like all different types of music, from rock and roll, jazz, oldies, salsa, latino and blues, I'll listen to country and western on an occassion, but not heavily, and I shy away from Rap. This CD is music that I think has potential, for the right listeners. Although I can't say I am crazy about every song,
I will start off by the cover, John Deaton did a fabulous job on designing it. Lets face it when some one sees something the cover catches the eye before they even hear a CD. So that was a good move. I think Dave Draper deserves a great deal of recognition for his efforts in putting this baby together, I think it takes a lot to put something like this into reality. I tip my hat to the Draper cat.
I like Dave Grinley's songs, down to earth kick back type music. Sort of reminds me of a campfire setting of some signpainters takin a break from a long day under a billboard out in the middle of nowhere by a highway sippin on some signpainter juice.
I also like to state, to me, the one song that gives this CD some ASSS KICKIN BEAT! They saved the best for last..."Letterville Rocks Me," is by the only...Mr. JOE REES I really give some heavy credit to this kool kat for his talent and guitar playin.
The other day I had some friends stop by to visit I happen to be painting my new Patio Table. It has a suns face in the middle with the rays on the bigger part of it, I asked if they ever heard this CD about Signpainters? They said no. I said ah man it's one the top ten at TOWER RECORDS! You didn't see the big poster on the windows? Na, we haven't been to Tower Records lately. Well here I have it, check it out let me know what you think? As I was painting the outline on the rays with transparent paint they were trippin out on the song "Sable Swing" they said looks like the strokes of your brush go with the beat of the song, it just flowwwws, I was...what can I say, flattered, but to be honest with you the song is Smooooth. If one day I can get down and finish this story I'm putting together, I would like Joe to sing the lyrics of my song? So don't forget me Joe when you make it BIG TIME!

So here's my two cents.

For one, actually pressing any CD's would be a dumb idea. With CDR's being dirt cheap as well as labels, the smart money is on JIT (just in time) press and mail.

Two, go to mp3.com and list it there with a few free songs.

I'm sure there are some other ideas I'll have 5 seconds after I post this.

It reminds me of a tape I bought in the late 80's called "Mighty Mopars". It was an album of Dodge/Plymouth musclecar inspired songs written and performed by some black chick out of Chicago. She sold it thru the Mopar magazines, both in their 'new items' section and a textual ad in the back.

You cant expect an industry-only CD to sell more than a few copies at best. If it were my baby, I think I'd sell it in bulk to the supply houses and manufacturers for them to give it away as a 'token gesture' to large purchases. That would propogate it widely, for Songpainter 2 someday. This is known as the 'crack dealer method"

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Robb Lowe ]

Yes, I understand your frustration. I can appreciate the work you and the others did on this. But that pressure treated thing was too much. "Buy one before I die of cancer"... I just don't think it was in the least bit funny.

I can see trying to push the CD but one can push too hard to the point where you don't want to buy one just out of spite. Guilt and shame are not a good way to sell your product. Neither is blatant pushing of it in unrelated topics. It just gets really old.

When this project first got started, I believe that people pledged their support because we were led to believe the proceeds were going to go to Barb and Steve to defray the costs of the updates and such to Letterville. Suddenly, the proceeds are going to go to some unyet decided charity. I think that this has turned a lot people off to buying.

Look, I got 300+ CD's sitting on my shelves right here, another 20 or so in my truck, and a bunch more down at the shop. I have close to 500 vinyl LP's here on my lower shelves and a huge box of cassettes I have stashed in my attic.

I don't have enough time to listen to what I already got on hand. As much as I would like to, I am not going to buy this CD just to buy it. If the proceeds are not going to go to Barb and Steve, I'll just send in some extra with my tax payment.

Maybe if people knew exactly where the proceeds were going, the sales numbers would increase. I, personally, am on the bubble as to whether or not the "Songpainter" CD is going to find it's way to our home.

Dave, don't take this personally. It isn't meant as a personal attack nor am I typing this with snotty tones in mind. Dana and I shared a meal with you and Cindy in Vinton and we throughly enjoyed your company. Weren't those steaks amazing?

I forgot...............If anyone really does NOT have a CD player, I'll be happy to send Draper a cassette of the Album.
Just make sure you give him the address of your Cave.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: pierre ]

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]

Well, what a mix of comments. All are appeciated and welcome. Each comment represents a percentage of the whole group who visit Letterville. A team can't run defense without offense.

For those who are tired of hearing about Songpainter, please feel free to ingor the posts.
New ones visit Letterville 24-7, we have to keep up the promotional hype! We have no motives other than to make people aware of the product.
If it stirs up anger in you, please accept my apologies.

There is a link on the front page of www.letterhead.com and there are sound clips of each song to sample.

My feelings & emotions, are on fire for those that worked so hard to make Songpainter possible.
I'm at the edge of frustration for these talented individuals.

Its not about me or "my" project, I have never thought of Songpainter as "my" project. This is a group project which someone has to lead. I had the leadership desire because of what happened 18 months ago.

I got angry 18 months ago when many on the Bullboard told me we would NEVER be able to produce a music CD. I was flamed as stiring up alot of hype to get attention with no intention of the project ever producing anything!

Well, now that we did do exactly what we said we would do, produce a quality Music CD by sign people, I guess those critics can just be silent.

Now, as for the profits of the sale of Songpainter, they will be sent off to Steve and Barb. I don't want to be part of deciding who will benefit. I just want to get started on the next CD collection.

As for getting the CD's to a meet, I think we need to provide a dozen copies to a representative going to a meet. They can offer them at the meet, and return unsold copies / money, which will be sent off to Letterville.

Kookabura, if you see this, we want you to take a dozen copies bac to OZ with you for the sign folks there. We can talk about the details later.

Eventually, I would like to turn everything over to Letterville so that Steve and Barb can handle sales, with a representative in respective countries that send out the CD with in their national boundaries.

I received my copy of "SongPainter" and i must say it is well done.
a lot of heart and soul went into it by the people who participated.
as far as you who are put off and feel they have been "reprimanded" or something has been shoved down their throats, so what? get a life!

thanks dave, joe, dave, john and pierre.
my hat is off for a job well done.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]

I have to agree with Mark above here... and add that who gives a crap what charity it is or whether its Steve & Barb that benefit, or whether it being rammed down our throats....we all talk about how we want to get better prices and charge what we are worth etc....but when it comes to so many thing here on the board....people are so cheap.....if your prepared to send it in to Steve and Barb anyway why not order a CD and get that for "free".

I remember in 1985 working (for "free",after finshing Springsteen's tour)on Live Aid at Wembley Stadium in London people bitched about all of us crew eating from a mock up of the Hard-Rock restaurant backstage, when this was all about starving people in Ethiopia....human nature will always find the negative side in things...you only gotta look at our news channels for that.

Don't give up Dave....keep plugging.

You can send one to me too....no point in sending a cheque drawn in Swedish currency though....Barb has fixed previously with my mastercard, with books, L'il Chizelers etc.

She has all my details exp date is 11-02

Mail me if you have any problems.

There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, but I will not tolerate this forum being used to publicly attack each other. If you feel you must bump heads with someone in particular, please use e-mail, the phone or a personal visit to resolve your differences in private.

We feel we need to clear up a couple things that have been suggested here. Letterville is not a charity. Please don't take this wrong, but Barb and I work our butts off everyday just like all of you. I know you mean well, but it's humiliating to have people think Steve and Barb depend on charity.

Letterville is a business. We earn income by selling subscriptions. Those who choose to subscribe are called Residents and get some extra perks as an incentive to do so.

We also sell advertising. Letterville is now attracting over 11,000 visits per day on a regular basis, so it's a great place to market a product at a very attractive price.

We've always been interested in the idea of making money by helping others make money. That applies to advertisers, but we really had all of you in mind. Let me explain.

At this stage in my life, I am not interested in another big business. My health is poor and I prefer freedom to the stress and hours needed to run a big business.

Our idea was to encourage the users of Letterville to come up with products that may appeal to the rest of us. It may be a t-shirt based on Letterville Chat, aprons, mouse pads...you get the idea.

Instead of us looking after the design, production and shipping, we would like to see you do that. We'll help you market here in Letterville in exchange for an agreed percentage. If you make money, Letterville makes money.

Not all your ideas will be hits. The secret is to test the market before investing in mass production. The orders will soon reveal if your idea will sell.

"How well it sells will depend on a couple questions still unresearched.

1. Would residents and visitors buy the CD to help generate funds to keep this web site growing? Those who love this site will do what their heart tells them. I hope their are a lot of those letterhead loving hearts out there.

2. How well do the residents and visitors like the people who are contributing music?
I hope some CD sells are based just because they know the person who has contributed a song. A few will.

3. The Shortreed Family's ability to market the CD properly to generate even more interest in the project. They can't start any marketing until they have a product.

(unquote)

I saw about 16 people who responded that they wanted one when they came out. If you have 16 orders, you have to consider the project a success.

Where these questions still "unresearched" before production began?

I have yet to see 7,000 shops, employees, or visitors post anything on this BB. Most of the chatters here could only fill a Greyhound Tour Bus.

The rest of us stop through letterville to get a coke on our way to somewhere else. Thats because of the "neighborhood". If letterville had a gated community restricted only to those who treated fellow sign people with cordial respect, it would be a different story.

But in cyber space, everyone gets to say and post anything they want. So letterville is often littered with cyber graffiti and rat infested word allys.

The only way visitors are going to contribute to this site is if it's cleaned up and the town drunks and thugs are thrown in the pokey.

Maybe I am getting the wrong vibe from your post.

I'll still think about it, but will NOT be pressured into it!

P.S. There is a book called "The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective People" by Dr. Steven Covey. In one part it talks about the effect of "Action and Reaction". How to take time before you let your emotions get the best of you. I feel it helped me in my relations to others, maybe you should check it out!

MC

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Clayton Graphics ]

Your first approaches to marketing this CD were very positive and upbeat. May I suggest to continue to focus in that direction?

I personally wouldn't expect my customers to purchase from me if I treated them in a manner that left them feeling resentful of my tactics.

Anyway holidays, travels, recovery from travels, holiday business slowdown, or conversely post holiday travel catch-up are all some of the types of reasons well-intentioned buyers have yet to buy.

Anyway, to Joe Rees asking that we interpret the thread in a positive way, OK I will do that, & Dave your second post on this thread came across just fine, but it is evident that many were not feeling the positive vibe at the top of this topic, & in some other OT songpainter plugs.

I also feel that if you "perceive" a subliminal slap in the face, but announce or denounce it in public, that may be the first slap.