posted
A couple of months ago I striped a red semi with a fairly simple white reflective graphic package that I do on all their trucks. I wasn't happy with the stripe on the drivers side (one spot had a few bubbles/small lumps that only got worse when I applied heat to fix it) We let it go for a couple of weeks to see if it would release, but it didn't.
Anyway, I headed out this morning to replace the stripe and ended up doing it THREE times. After I removed it for the second time, I was VERY careful with my cleaning procedure.
I used rapid remover after removing the stripe with a rubber wheel. Wiped it down about three times. Switched to rapid prep, wiped it down about three more times, twice with rapid tac (wanted to make sure I got it clean) Hinged the graphic from the top, dry app; squeegied short-fairly firm overlapping strokes, sprayed the transfer tape, waited a bit, squeegied again, sprayed again and removed the transfer tape.
Looked great, started packing up, and noticed small bubbles had formed. Not pin-sized but more like tiny, flat little puddles. I just don't know what I am doing wrong.
Any ideas? The graphic on the passenger side is fine. I used 3M reflective white. I made sure I had a good gold squeegy with a sharp edge.
I'm just about bonkers here, it was a long, frustrating day.
Suelynn
PS: I've got to add that I had to water down both the rapid prep and the rapid tac. I don't normally do that, but I didn't have enough to use it straight.
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've had a problem with bubbling too. It seems that the vinyl was delaminating from the adhesive. It looked like bubbles that just got bigger and bigger with age. I switched to Avery-Dennison brand (which also seems thinner) and I've not had anymore problems.
posted
Is it possible the drivers side had received recent repairs(new paint or paint repairs) ??? Though it could very well have been a manuf. defect in vinyl, it also sounds like "outgassing" from not yet cured paint.
The other two things I would suggest(to avoid problems), never use Rapid Tac on reflective, only use Rapid TacII(it flashes much faster) it won't stay wet long enough to cause any delamination.
And never "water down or change our formulas" this will only result in inferior performance.
Sorry you had the bad luck!!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532
posted
we have had lots of trouble with 3m their products are not as good as they say they are. We use nikkalite have had no troubles it is also not as brittle which makes it easier to use
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks for posting guys. It makes me feel better knowing others have experienced these problems. I have also used Avery reflective colors with no trouble. I think my supplier told me 3M was much cheaper for the same thickness in white, guess I learned my lesson.
Roger, I don't normally water down rapid tac products, I was just in a real pinch.
Thanks again for the help,
Sue
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I payed attention to this post and learned a few things. First, maybe I should give Rapid Tac II a try. We use Rapid Tac more and more in our shop now, but I guess if TacII works on reflective, that's good news. We do a fair amount of striping on fire trucks and we try to apply the reflective dry unless it's a real bear, then we'll Rapid Tac it, and we've had success. The fire truck mfg. co. we letter trucks for also has their own crew do striping using the WET ONLY application and they use "RIGHT ON" app. fluid. I haven't seen or heard of any failures in the last 3 years I've been doing work there.
Second of all, I've experienced the bubbles caused by outgassing as well, by this is usually only when I'm using chrome vinyl, probably because it is so thick, the gases can't escape through it? I've applied vinyl over fresh paint in cases where we didn't have a choice, and that never seems to be a problem when using high-performance vinyl.
Suelynn, what series reflective are you using? we use 580 and 680 plus here (I think one of those replaced the other and there is only one now) and for race cars I'll use 510 series which is thinner and cheaper, but it does have sort of an orange peel finish compared to the hi-buck stuff.
I've been a big believer in 3M products and have used 3M (Gerbercal) for the ten years that I've been in business and for 10 years before that working at other shops. Every now and then I'll try a few popular name brands just to "see" how if works, but I'll stick with what I know what works best.
I would like to hear from someone else who has used other brands of film with success over a ten year period, just for the sake of experience. The 3M stuff does get spendy... maybe that's why I drive a used pickup instead of a new one?
-------------------- Kurt Gaber Chippewa Falls, WI Thank You Letterheads for being a part of both Brush Bashes in '02 & '06!
posted
No rodger it doesn't help much but they do make a removable reflective as well
-------------------- Ian Wilson Signmaker Retired 3 Panorama Drive Toowoomba Queensland Australia may all your troubles be little ones. The man that never make a mistake never makes anything. Posts: 656 | From: Toowoomba Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm not sure what number this 3M reflective is, but it is called Scotchlite reflective sheeting.
I conducted a very scientific test buy applying a strip of each brand to an aluminum panel. I applied them both exactly the same way. The Avery reflective had no bubbles, and has a glossier finish than the 3M. The 3M had 3 or 4 very small bubbles (nothing I would worry about on an application) Upon closer inspection, the avery product seems slightly thinner and more pliable than the 3M (very much like comparing 2ml and 3ml vinyl). The cost is exactly the same ($14 bux Can/24" yard)
Please note that I am not slamming 3M in any way, or trying to convince anyone to switch. Just trying to solve a very frustrating problem.
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you've had no trouble on one side of a vehicle and nothing but trouble on the other, maybe it's the vehicle itself that is the problem. Has it been repainted? Waxed? Greasy? Dirt globs already in the paint? It seems there's something going on with this particular vehicle that is out of the ordinary. If the reflective was the problem, both sides would have bubbles. There just might be something in your Rapid Tac that isn't compatible with the driver's side. If it's any consolation, we had to return a couple of rolls of 3M reflective because the surface was so full of "orange peel", our Edge machine wouldn't print on it. We had thousands of tiny "holes" and you could actually see and feel the texture of the 3M product. However, in your case, I'm pretty sure this rough surface wouldn't have any effect on the application. Sorry for your problem. Sometimes this business is very frustrating because we don't make the products we use, we make the products we use look good. But, if those products are defective...guess who gets blamed? We lose either way and that is why some of us build this "X FACTOR" into our shop rate.
-------------------- Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B El Granada, CA 650-588-0490 lalazarus@pacbell.net
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Sounds like the product you were sold was an engineer grade, either 3200 or 5200 series (not intended for use on vehicles). If it were 580 or 680, it would say so on the back of the liner. I use 3M products almost exclusively. Rarely do I have a problem. You may want to call 3M (1-800-3Mhelps) and talk to a tech rep or go online at http://search.3m.com/. If it is determined that the product is at fault, they will replace it.
Here's a story about a problem I had and how 3M responded to it. About 5 or 6 years ago, I submitted several sample sign faces along with an application to become a Penn Dot certified shop. The sign faces were sent to a lab for analyzing and the results came back OK on everything except the screen printed red portion of the stop sign. The problem with it was that it wasn't returning enough light.
The matched system 712 transparent series stop sign red ink I had was several years old, had been opened many times, so I figured it evaporated a large portion of the vehicle (reducers) out of it and that being so, was laying to much pigment to allow for sufficient light return. So - I thinned the ink (not recommended if you want it to last)figuring that I would get less pigment through the screen. Sent the print off to the lab and the results came back the same as previous. Insufficient light return on the red portions.
My next move was to call 3M. They sent a tech rep to my shop and examined the entire system I was using. Turned out that the reflective qualities of the sheeting just barely met the minimum specs. When I printed the red, that put the light return specs below what was required.
What 3M did was give me a new 48" x 50 yd. roll of white and a new gallon of 712. The day it arrived, I printed a few more sample stop signs, selected the best after they were dry, sent if off to the lab and the results came back good. I got the certification.
I don't want to sound like a 3M salesman. Just reporting what works for me and how 3M has responded positively to my problems.
-------------------- Dave Johnson Saltsburg, PA
724-459-7240
Posts: 228 | From: Saltsburg, PA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sorry for being so late but I just stumbled across this as I was searching for some other info.
The following are excerpts from product information bulletins from 3M pertaining to reflective sheeting.
This 1st one says that series 690 is Most susceptible to outgassing, with 580 & 680 following close behind. Controltac & scotchcal are least susceptible. But it says the bubbles should disappear in a few weeks.
This 2nd one is a directly taken paragraph which appears in descriptions of all above mentioned products: "Some substrates such as under-cured polyurethane paint, fiberglass, & some paint systems may continue to outgas for some time. Two-part polyurethane paints & clear coats may stop curing when the air & surface temperatures are lower than 75 F (24 C). Be aware that outgassing causes this sheeting to bubble."
So all those who said outgassing was the cause were probably right. Maybe the thicker the material is has something to do with it too. I'm just guessing.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com
Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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buy applying a strip of each brand to an aluminum panel. I applied them both exactly the same way. The Avery reflective had no bubbles, and has a glossier finish than the 3M. The 3M had 3 or 4 very small bubbles (nothing I would worry about on an application) Upon closer inspection, the avery product seems slightly thinner and more pliable than the 3M (very much like comparing 2ml and 3ml vinyl). The cost is exactly the same ($14 bux Can/24" yard)
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