Over the last three years, I have seen many of my steady customers either go out of business altogether, or sell out to out-of-state companies that have their sign work done elsewhere and aren't open to the idea of using a new source. "Cheap" has always been the operative word with most of the businesses in this area, and I have been able to generally find the few customers that don't operate that way to make up my clientele. These clients are becoming more and more rare. I have always tried to sell service and quality above all else and it has been my reputation to do so, but these hard times coupled with the stereotypical mindset of middle Appalachia are influencing too many business people's philosophy on how they make buying decisions in general, and signs gain no special consideration.

My competition further aggravates the scenario. I am selling $2000 signs for $1600, but am losing jobs to others selling $800 signs for $1200. Fewer of the available customers seem able to, or even care to realize the fact that they are paying too much for substandard quality work, or are so afraid to spend money that they simply drop plans to buy signs at all when they are told a price. My ethics and reputation won't allow me to sell $1000 signs for $1200 to try to stay competitive, and in most cases it isn't possible anyway, e.g., you can't sell a lighted sign that isn't lit. (The $$ figures I've quoted aren't specific, just for illustration purposes. You all know where I'm coming from.)

I read your post twice and am a bit confused as to what the problem is. In one breath you claim that most of your customers are going for price only, but in the next paragraph you are saying you are losing $800.00 jobs to those selling the same job for $1000.00

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Originally posted by Bob Rochon:
Brad,

I read your post twice and am a bit confused as to what the problem is. In one breath you claim that most of your customers are going for price only, but in the next paragraph you are saying you are losing $800.00 jobs to those selling the same job for $1000.00

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Are you about to absorb it in labour cost or are you going to take it away from the materials?

Show to true break down of the work and How & Why this is a better product.

Let the others fight with the under dollar pricing!
But if your customer knows after sitting down with them about the true value of money spent and quality of workmanship, Price is not a factor anymore.

If it works out that they are on the Budget Line then give them the Budget Sign!
Be sure to warn them of the lose of quality and use of inferior materials...

I get your point about people being attracted to the lower figure, even though they have no knowlege of what they're giving up to get that price. Right there is your challenge. Education, and frank talk about what they can justify spending. You can't be shy about flatly asking "How much do have to spend?" You might have to lower your sights a little. I know I have had to. We can't always do the award winning job if there is no budget for it. I can tell you're an honest guy - be honest with your customers. If all they can manage is $1200, fair enough. Let them know you will give then a full dollar's value for each and every buck they spend with you. You can NOT give them more, but you CAN give them every dime's value. Another thing you cannot do is waste time. That's how you are able to give so much value, because you aren't wasteful of your production hours. If they are serious and ready to get their money's worth, they have to hire you right now with a retainer of design fee. If they are not sure, that's fine, you will be here when they're ready.

I moved! I went to West Virginia and stayed for 2 years. When I first visited sisters there, I saw one shoe polished sign with the letters runnin off the right side of the sign, after another...thought I'd hit paydirt...was gonna rebuild that town with decent signage!

I showed my book to all three of the sign shops in town when I got there and they stepped back like I had a gun on em and told me I was too qualified!

Thaaat really sucked, so I went on my own immediately. I wasn't a 14th generation landowner in those parts so I didn't get but about 4 jobs the whole two years. They were in the last 6 mos and chased for the duration of my stay!

I was hungry! I about starved. I moved back to the big city.

Brad, I've been all over this country and never have I seen a more depressed (financially) setup than West Virginia! I don't know if these other folks get it until they stay in a lean-to with nails in the corner for a closet and chop their own wood for a 50 below winter and have to hang clothes on a clothesline in the same weather!

It's amazingly shocking for me to know you're getting any business there, enough to hold you there anyway!

You are a real man to stick it out! I was a single parent and had to do what I had to do at the time. The only jobs available for an outsider were runnin shine, escorting truckers, tendin bar and working in the hospital hahaha!

I guess you'll have to do what you gotta do, not sure what can be for you though...don't know the equipment, etc. I can give you a lead though...Just past Pipestem Resort (Headin toward Hinton) is a right that you can take and when you get to the fork in the road, take a left and then a right just as the sky opens up in front of you, the Appalachain Folklife Center...they have a big shin dig every year, a music festival, get to do their banner and tell the couple that run the place you know me and to introduce you around! (Contacts!!) The property the place sits on will take your breath away, ask for a tour, that alone is worth the trip...it used to be a commune for hippy's, the library and the press house is still up, really kewl things to check out and the people are great! Let me know if ya wanna go, I've got contact info, (yes they have a phone and email up hehehe) (indoor plumbin, the whole works hahahah)

All of your good advice contains approaches that I take and have taken to build the business to where it is, but believe me, the situation is so bad now that people really won't listen to reasoning on value when they see the bottom line of a lower price, even if the work is inferior. In normally good times, I am happy to get $1600 for the $2000 sign, but as I said now I'm having a very hard time even getting that.

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Originally posted by Linda Silver Eagle:
...Just past Pipestem Resort (Headin toward Hinton) is a right that you can take and when you get to the fork in the road, take a left and then a right just as the sky opens up in front of you, the Appalachain Folklife Center...they have a big shin dig every year, a music festival, get to do their banner and tell the couple that run the place you know me and to introduce you around! (Contacts!!) The property the place sits on will take your breath away, ask for a tour, that alone is worth the trip...it used to be a commune for hippy's, the library and the press house is still up, really kewl things to check out and the people are great!

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I'm so sorry yer havin a hard time. I do know how it is uphill from here.

I could call some folks and see if there's not sompn can be done, my sister works for Princeton Hospital, she's a big suit in Materials Management, maybe I can get her to pull some strings, but you'd be wrastlin with Dove Signs on that one I think (price wise). They don't really like dealin with them, just they were the biggest, fastest, closest shop nearby (out of 3). I'll see what she says!

I got another sister who got real good at acquiring grants right and left for Concord College, she even started the childcare center there. Might be able to get some help from her, knowledge mostly...but, knowledge is power and more valuable than gold and silver...don't matter where ya live!

If all else fails, (don't laugh) go the The Last Resort, ask for Hugh P. Dunn (Hootie) and tell him I sent ya and tell him of your plight and that I EXPECT him to put out feelers for ya!

(Last Resort...take a right at THE light in Athens and pass Concord College...careful though, it's down hill from there...3 kiss your ass turns and ya git to the bottom...real quick-like when it's iced over...drive slow, it's a road kill smorgasbord hehehe! You'll 'bout hit a red brick house on yer left when ya cross a one lane bridge, the bar is on yer right...Hootie lived in the trailer out front. Last I heard, he was accidentally raising pups half wolf, half white shepperd and/or border collie, honk the horn before ya git out of the car to make sure you got what ya came with when ya go to leave hehehe. Don't let this scare ya none, just pay attention while yer there hehehe!)

Mostly hunters and bikers in the bar, but Hootie's cousin was due to move up there and start some big resort on the back roads runnin along side 460, down Pisgah Mtn. I left before I had the chance to get the account but he may be ready by now! And Hootie's sign was about to fall off the side of the hill too hehehe!

Tell Hootie that Letterheads are like bikers, 'cept we ride signs 'stead of, or as well as bikes...that we are bothers and sisters of the brush, and if he wants free flyers for the next pig pickin to help ya out hahahaha...I'll do the free flyers (live band, dead pig, yawl come!) Life is just too easy up there with the exception of the pesky money issue!

I just found out today, I got unlimited long distance on my cell phone, on turtle island (USA) anyway, so I reckon this'd good a time as any to rustle up sompn yer way.

Now I know how you had work all along, you live in Beckley! I almost moved up there instead of back down to the city but was warned by town folk it'd be the same gig as in Lerona, Athens and Little Whittle, only the rent would be higher hehehe. I sure miss those mountains sompn fierce! Next time we come visit maybe we can treat ya to dinner at the Cracker Barrel at exit 460? Be glad to! We could go ridge runnin if ya got time...meet a few folks 'round Princeton and the Speedway.

Is the Speedway Drive-In still operatin?

I believe Clay and Shelli were runnin the Appalachain Folklife Center last I was up and I have their email addy if you want to contact em. They could use a whole bunch of signs 'round that place!

Oh! have you approached Pipestem Resort? Easy, routed chocolate brown signs with gold letters! There's a hotel and cabins and shops back in there too! I know, not real big coin stuff, but it puts biscuits on the table and wood in the stove. Ya never know till you expect a miracle!

I know 11 ain't 16, but if you're leavin' 4 on the table to get it, It's nearly the same.

Good luck!

I obviously don't know your personal situation, but it could be the best thing to do for yourself and your family. What comes to mind is Mike Jackson's story. He started out in Oklahoma, and when the economy there soured, he went out and SPECIFICALLY chose a location in an area which would support the type of work he wanted to do.

I have essentially done the same thing here, choosing to live and work among people who can and will buy my signs and pay my prices.

Mr. Lavallee has a great post on "new ideas" that I found particularly interesting. Lot's of ideas popping up on that post for ways of expanding sales and offering new product to help fill in the money hole during hard times.

I know that I personally like buying supplies from the company that offers a wide variety of selection and services. The public is the same I believe.

Case in point: We have a small hometown hardware store where I live. I tried to do my part in supporting the "hometown" concept and buy stuff from the guy even though I knew I could get it cheaper elsewhere. But the problem was that everytime I would go in for something, he NEVER had what I needed in stock...and I got tired of wasting extra time going there, just to turn around and have to go elsewhere.

There is an Ace Hardware, Lowes, Mennard's, Home Depot within 10 miles of the guy. If he can't carry something as simple as 3M Super 77 adhesive spray, or Goo Gone....then I have to go where I can find it.

Linda, what can I say? You're fixin' to get me all teary-eyed like ol' paint now, woman! I do some work in Princeton as it is only 45 minutes away, the situation there is about the same as here: Dove and two other full-service companies, about 20 other small shops. The biz here in WV is such that a full-service company can't really survive without doing most of their work out-of-state. It's a headache that I have deliberately avoided for these two decades because of what I've seen happen to those that have tried. I think Dove burned down a while back (can you say "insurance money?") and I'm not sure of the extent to which they built back. I don't think I've ever recieved a call from Princeton Hospital, but have done a few banners for Concord College along the way. An opportunity to at least bid on a job would be appreciated for sure! If you should happen to talk to your sisters, have them drop me an email or call or something if they would like! If you ever come for a visit, you better let me treat you at the Cracker Barrel, or better yet, how about the Outback or Applebee's? You are too sweet!

Joe, I could reel off some nasty statistics for WV, but I'm depressed enough as it is!

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DIVERSIFY!
or move to an area where the work and the money best suit you needs.

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I hear that, Pat. Since I've already diversified as much as I can, I have to be open to the possibility of relocation. You hate to move when you have small kids, though. My parents moved from state to state all the time when I was young and I grew to really hate moving. I feel as though I'm established pretty well here, it's just the overall economics that are making it tough.

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I know this is an over-simplification, but if you sold $1100 dollar signs for $1100, then even if the average customer can't tell it's better quality then an $800 sign for $1200, at least they could tell it's cheaper.

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Well Doug, I suppose one over-simplification deserves another, right? LOL What I meant to illustrate was that nothing can be sold for the price it should command. That $1100 sign would be hard to sell for $800. Substandard work sells because it's cheaper than the good sign it's compared to, although it's not really comparable from a quality standpoint.

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Originally posted by Joe Rees:
Cripes Brad, maybe W.VA doesn't deserve you. I discovered when I moved away from the west coast of Fla that location DOES matter. It isn't everything, but it IS a factor. If you end up being constantly unappreciated, maybe a move is worth considering. That's a tough one. If you've got to pander to that low of a denominator, where's the thrill of expression?

Speaking of expression - you said "I used to have a band that played at that festival". Are you holding out on Songpainter Brad? I guess, unofficially, Songpainter II has begun, since #1 is already out there. I'm already tossing ideas around to start recording eventually. Think about getting a group back together and making some connections to record something. It won't make you any money, but might take your mind off the economy. Hell, you've got great material for a song about struggling to make it. Think about it!

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They have an Outback and an Applebee's? Are you for real? When I left they were building a Walmart out toward Greenville and were putting up the new Loews in Princeton.

As far as the money for signs go...it's like doing a $200 4'x8'...they only wanna pay $25-50, if they can't trade buckshot or livestock instead. Most folks are on a fixed income, like retirement or food stamps...and they refer to their income as broken instead of fixed.

That place is soooo hard to walk away from though. I remember when I decided to leave, a friend told me, "Well, Linda, yer doin the right thing...life expectancy here is 35." I said "Hell, I'm older n' that already, I figured I had it licked!"

I can't breath like I oughta in the city...I miss a big ole lungful of clean air whilst waitin on the front porch for the ducks to come back for spring. Up there the only time ya gotta worry is when the windchimes quit ringin...down here ya got to swat em yerself. I did hang a set on my clothesline though. The clothesline is on my deck, hahaha! There ain't nothin like reachin high as you can to the heavens first thing in the morning, and takin em down (the hung up clothes, not yer hands hahaha!) when you're fixin to cook dinner is a good feeling. Reckon, I'm just crazy that way. But that's the way I am.

I packed what I hadn't bartered away, sold, or lost in the flood and cried all the way outta town...had use auto-pilot, couldn't see where I was goin. I miss every tree, every crick, every bird and the roads...they got in my veins. I swore I'd find a way to get on the internet so I could move back one day and eat while I was up there...I'm slowly but surely getting there...and guess what, Jenny wants to go to Concord College in 3 years! Yeehaw!

Brad,

Have you ever gone to The Sweet Shop? It's across from the Concord College, best potato soup ya ever run down yer neck! The fella that's been runnin it may give it up one day so get there while he still does...and he closes down when there ain't no classes runnin at the college.

Actually Brad, I've got 6 sisters and a brother. Four sisters up your way. I'll get on the horn tonight and see what I can stir up. I could tell you some interesting facts about the Dove Sign Co. It'd blow your mind.

It was never my intention to sadden anybody, but when i read Brad's initial post, stuff came floodin back to me, then when I saw the simple answers comin in, I felt I should back him up, WV is a difernt planet than the rest of us know. To stand anywhere there is to fall in love, if'n ya like nature in full pure force. To leave is like losing yer best dog. It's a thick, deep and wide thing for me. Kinda like seein yer first flame again and hopin all systems are set on GO! I don't know how else to explain it.

Don't cry for me Letterville, hehehe, this just reminded me why I stomped back down to the city, to get my ducks lined up so I could return to my first love hehehe! (Insert adamant war cry here...whoop whooop whoop!) and a healthy yeehaw for joyous reasons.

Remember, yer in the palm of God's hand, so make like a sparrow and sing.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]

Case in point, I was in the mtns for 2 years, came back and NObody remembered me. Don't quit silly, kick butt and have faith. Friends would just distract ya. Brad and I aren't dead yet, decide good things for yerself and expect miracles. I can't stress that enough.

When I left the mtns with half of what I came with and two years of rejections, I sure din't see myself with a puter or thousands of friends in the business! Now, I've got a cell phone, a van, kids growed up, a website, another big dog, a house big enough to work out of, shoot the list of blessings goes on and on. The top is not close to the bottom and the ladder has steps. Ya can't run up it without falling back off. You get to rebuild, you get another chance. Think about what you can do this time that will make it, not break it. (pssssssst...faith is your first clue!)

Ask Timi, he don't wonder if it's gonna be there, way he prolly looks at it is, worryin ain't an option, it is there and it's mine! Trust me, it works when that's all you're willing to believe! Intent begets results!

Not tryin to fuss at ya Joe, now get out there and hand out them cards and leave no stone unturned, bet I can beat ya! On yer mark, get set go!