A. I reckon they would be encouraged by the discussions like this one!!!

This fine trade WILL NOT DIE!! because of you people and I will not let it!

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]

I get Timi's point and I wholeheartdly agree with him..you see when I started out .the Electro Pounce was around.we couldn't afford one..we used a Transformer with one side burned out , a nail, a lot of rubber tape, and a Rheostat....worked great.
We had an Opaque Projector,and as CJ said a HUGE MORGUE..But we learned to use the pencil, chalk, charcoal or whatever to make our layouts.....
I taught my Daughter to do all of this.....and now she has her own Shop...(An Art and Custom Frame Business )
But I see an occassional Hand Lettered Sign in her window....that she did for herself......

Tradition is great.......but I personally don't believe there is much hope in getting the younger generation to take up the TRADE as we know it....They are to darn lazy.(Most of them) Granted there is an exception to the rule...

Ps.......Can anybody here spell "Speedball".....heheheheheh!!!

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]

I agree with most everything said here! I am old school, my daddy used to do this for the guvment, he did the uncle sam signs, of course I didn't know it until I was 37-8 years old...I was signwriting for real cash money when I was 14...how's that for bizzare? hehehe!

I still haven't broke down and bought a plotter. I like doing the menu and pool rule signs. If I can make it look right, stay consistant with my letters, and have to insist it's not done with vinyl letters, I take it as a compliment!

It's not that I hate stickie work, just that I am proud of what I can do with my skills!

I think it should be a bare minimum pre-requisite for letterheads to know a speedball manual upside down and backwards, but that's just me and I digress, LOL!

Timi, this is one of the best threads I've seen here in a while! Not only is the information and the nostalgia great, the support for the old ways is inspiring and to top it off, the warm invitations to newbies to this fine trade is really heart warming to see!

Mr. Passion (Rob Larkham),

Thanks! I'd like to see you post all the wednesday nights projects. Maybe I'm one of a few who would love to see it, maybe one of many who are attempting the same. I think holding each other accountable for really teaching it to others when we have the opportunity would be fantastic! Do we live in the only country where sign writing is not taught in fine colleges?...as a real "job?"

Why aren't most of us teaching classes? hehehe!

I think I'll go put some ideas togeher...to get this off the ground!

Thank you everyone who posted and left egoes somewhere else! It's nice to see!

And to follow suit, make it to at least one Letterhead's Meet! Like a Lays potato chip, no one can do just one! There is absolutely no way to describe all the benefits of attending one of these, as there are so many!

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

I personally am grateful for these fine examples....but am wondering if you hand lettering folks consider these sign guys "sellouts" or "traitors"?

I think there is a place for the traditional and the contemporary....and I have to tell you, I am solely into vinyl....but have a deep admiration for guys with hand lettering talents who care to take the time and effort to create something extended straight from the heart....stick with us guys.

Just wanted to add, It's a Big Mac society we live in now...if we don't get our food as soon as we pull up to the drive-in window we start throwing mean stares towards those inside.

Everything is instant gratification. Quicker, more, now! I personally think it would be great to take a trip into town on a horse and buggy...relaxing, time to think, the smell of the outdoors....but difficult or impossible in today's society. It is a bit of a shame.

I sit down and watch old Andy Griffith reruns every night on TV land just to mellow out and smile about the simpler times. I'm not kidding!

No angry hockey fathers beating people to death over a silly hockey practice on Andy's show....good ol' wholesome...nonviolent...sane entertainment. Sorry...I'm rambling on now.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

If a person is going to survive much less excel in this trade they need at the very least the basic skills need to ply it. Many people once they own the software & equipment do not learn these skills. They expect the software to do it for them. There are & have been solid rules & techniques for layout & design of both clipart and copy. As far as I know they haven't changed in quite some time,yet many do not seek them out or try to learn them.

For the most part I wholeheartedly agree. You're preaching to the choir here. I am a graphic designer by trade..and know how to design.

No doubt about it...you gotta know design regardless of what sign avenues you take on. I have personally found that the guys who buy equipment on a whim...who don't have any real artistic talent...don't affect me much if at all.

People know talent when they see it...and those are the people I work with. Sure, you're always gonna get someone looking for a "blue-light" special...but hasn't that always been the case?

Quote: <but have a deep admiration for guys with hand lettering talents who care to take the time and effort to create something extended straight from the heart...> No flame here.

So, yes...vinyl or paint...you really need the training and the God given gift and I agree with you on several points...but with a slant that leans towards David's point of view. Good post Timmi...great insights and discussion.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

The old ways have given me an excellent foundation for the new, I feel that these basics are what is missing today but as has been said, what incentive is there for people to learn them?, do they see the need?

I have a young fellow coming to my shop once a week to learn brush skills, he part times with another sticker shop here. He has seen my work and wants to be able to do what I do.

I wonder if he will stick to it? It's very boring, getting a handle on brush skills when he can already pump out letters on a cutter.

We'll see.

All comments are with grins, winks, and a bit of good natured humor...mixed in with a bit of dopey sarcasm. I am smiling as I write this...so PLEASE don't picture me as being an angry argumentative flamer.

Just because you give a guy a saw doesn't make him a carpenter. Everyone knows how to operate an automobile, but that doesn't mean they have the capability of becoming a winning racecar driver. A little instruction might allow them to hack their way through the task...but it'll never be as good as someone with the inborn talent.

I like basketball...but no matter how much I practice and play...I gotta feeling that I'll never be a Michael Jordon.

And thus, knowing how to operate a vinyl cutter or dip a paintbrush in some paint, armed with some basic principles, doesn't mean that that person is going to produce anything interesting at all.

From the posts I've seen....almost everyone would agree that there is tons of crap design out there by guys with the equipment .... but NO talent.

Talent is everything. The accountant that buys a vinyl cutter doesn't scare me one bit....more power to him....it just means there will be one more "like new", "hardly used" good cutter out there for sale in a couple years for a bargain price.

I'm not disputing the power of apprenticeships of the trade by any means...please don't get me wrong...but artistic talent "way" to does matter. A guy with talent, combined WITH the skills of a master sign guy like Timmi can become a master himself. But a guy with no talent?.....I doubt it.

When I went through college (years ago), there were students that were "taught" design principles, color theory, layout, etc...and after 4 years of instruction, their stuff still looked as bad as a gradeschoolers crayon drawing.

Yes..you can teach a talented guy the trade and he can become a master...but you can't even come close to doing that with someone with no talent.
I feel confident I could learn to use the brush...but that doesn't mean I could ever come close to being the master that you...or someone else probably is. If you're an accomplished freehand "brush" painter....then you've GOT a tremendous amount of inborn talent.

Please...beat me up on this if you feel compelled..but just be gentle...I feel a storm brewing.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

60 replies and no name-calling or flame-throwing!

I would just like to add this is not a unique situation to the Sign Trade. Photographers for major publications now use Auto-focus/Auto-exposure cameras they can edit/crop/color correct on a laptop and send to the magazine over a modem in a few minutes. Mechanics can't tell you what is wrong with your car without hooking it up to the computer. I could go on but you get the idea.

Just curious, but how many NEW books (computer program up to date books) are there on good layout?

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any!
I see the old Speedball book mentioned, Atkinson's book, mabe some others, but is there even a NEW book on the subject of good layout and design?

The reason there needs to be continual updates on these layout books is because of changes in advertising trends every few years. For instance, if you were doing retro signs of the 50's for a 1950's style restaurant(example), there is a certain layout "look" that has to be achieved.

Likewise, if your doing a 1920's retro restaurant theme you might use a lot of "BROADWAY" style fonts and solid black panels on a white background with some wavy stipes to fill in the negative space. You wouldn't use that look today because good sign layout reflects up to date trends set by television advertising, magazine and newspaper ads.

Maybe some Letterheads ought to get busy and make some useful up to date books on this subject of layout. A book like this isn't going to come from the "quicky sticky" shops anytime soon.

To address Timi's point, a person may ask for something here. Sometimes it's just something that isn't worth the time to create. There may not be any requirement to prove one's design/layout/whatever ability before making their first sign. As business picks up, clients will ask to see an example of work that person has done. If they lack the skills you talk about, the perspective client will be shown a bunch of ugly signs. It will then be up to that customer to determine if their only concern is price or if they actually want a sign that won't make them sick to look at. I am relatively new to the business. I love what I do. I have learned an enormous amount from this bb and the people here and in chat. Some of these people I look at in awe. I wouldn't say that the work I've done is amazing, but I can see a steady improvement in it. I would love to be able to paint. I had some awesome signpainters attempting to teach me the basics at Pat's meet. I think the skills are still being handed down, just not on such a grand scale as they once were.

I've heard some talk about us new people in a bad light. We haven't paid our dues, etc. Granted, I didn't work for an old time sign painter and work my way up from sweeping the floors. Today, our primary tools may be different and the "dues" we pay are different than they were 20-30-40 years ago, but there are still dues to pay. Today, most shops starting out use a lot of vinyl. The new shops have to set them self aside from the quicky-sticky shops. We have to show that we understand layout/colors/design better than the QS shops. Generally, QS shops can only produce signs that involve fonts they've bought somewhere or standard/existing vector art. We have to show people that we are capable of producing signs with modifying the font, recreating their logo (without the disk) or creating artwork from scratch.

If I were opening a shop today I wouldn't even think about using paint (except perhaps to do some blends on vinyl) on most signs. I would save that for the high end sandblasted and hand carved stuff.

The world has changed for the most part. Vinyl works. Most businesses trade in their vehicles every 2-3 years and a lot are even leased. Paint isn't even an option in most cases.

And there's few out there who can letter in a way that equals vinyl in price or quality. Price wise it's certainly hard to beat.

There will always be a high end market for things like gold leaf, glue chipping, hand carved signs and wierd stuff like I do.

But there is also a very large market for vinyl.

This said, I believe that what lacks in many shops (especially but not exclusively vinyl) is the design skills required to turn out an outstanding sign. The computer is a wonderful tool that allows us to make fabulous lettering... better than most of us (ESPECIALLY ME) could ever do by hand.

BUT I've never seen a computer that knows how to design. This is a basic skill we need to learn. It takes practice and experience and some would argue talent to truely master.

Unfortunately many own shops and/or make signs without first learning this necessary skill. It was no different when folks did signs 'the old fashioned way' with a brush and a can of paint.

There was no law way back when I started against doing bad signs (thank goodness) and there is no law against it now either. There were some folks mad at me when I first started for selling too cheap. I couldn't understand then why the 'oldtimers' needed to charge so much. How things change when I became an old timer myself. hahahahaha

As 'old guard' letterheads we can pass on the old fashioned design skills to the new generation no matter how they choose to execute the final product. If we can show them the joy of the brush so much the better. It's important!

Punch line first - Tim's original point about beginners taking the time to learn the basics of graphics is well taken.

I started in the sign biz with no graphics training. The first year, I would draw things and just move the pieces and parts around until the sign looked "correct". I had a good natural feel for layout, but it became obvious that there were "rules", and knowing the rules would save time. Tom McIltrot at SignCraft steered me to Mike Stevens book Mastering Layout. It was like being given the combination to the safe.

Now when I look at a bad layout, I usually understand the "why" well enough to coach less experienced employees. Not expert coaching, but capable coaching.

In that context, I really enjoy the layout discussions here because they are invariably educational. It is also the one time where the post never gets personal - it is all about the exchange of ideas. Everyone is very sensitive to the feelings of the person whose art is being discussed.

Where I depart from traditional thinking is the notion that all signwriters must know how to sketch or use a paintbrush. A computer is a very fancy piece of paper with an undo button. Love that undo button. And love my 42" inkjet.

Layout is layout whether accomplished by pen or computer.

It wasn't Little Johnny... it was the office girl. I remember that that cartoon. the funniest one was "the day a fly landed on Bill's projector". LOL!