In Years past, when ever I went to ask for work at a sign business and or sell work to a prospective client, it was often as not a requirement to either show some sort of artistic sketch ability and or brush skills to get the work,...period.If one could not at least sketch and or letter a line of block copy proficiently for prospective employers and or clients chances of getting the job were next to nil if not impossible. The first test of employment consisted of some sort of adeptness at design and or production. Many is the time a "sign wannabe" & or old pro would ask for work from a client or shop & the first thing that was done he or she was handed a pencil & paper or brush & asked to display their skills. One didn't have to be a portrait artist or expert cartoonist but they did have to show that they knew thier basic "abc's" & "numbers" so to speak. I would like to assume this practice has been time honored over several centuries at the very least.

Now to my point,....what happened to these skills?
I see people ask here daily for clipart,...fonts or whatever copyrighted idea you can dream up & then some,but in the time I've been coming to this site I rarely see persons asking for help to develope these basic skills,... yet they expect others here to send them the efforts of people who actually took time to learn the basic skills needed in this trade. Rarely do they ask how to do anything in a traditional manner or expect to be able to even learn,...all they need to know is how to work a mouse and whatever software they can get.Where do these folks think clipart comes from? Who made the fonts? They are the product of the efforts of those who actually took time to learn the basic skills needed to ply their trade,..period. I think some one put it best "How would you feel if you did a sign & then your competitor broke into your shop, stole it then sold it to your client?"

My understanding of the intent of the "Letterhead" movement is to share these skills so they are not lost to technology. In years past one did not have to be a master artist to survive in this trade but they did have to possess a few basic skills if nothing else to know basic lettering & design layout skills and some basic tracing skills. One of my mentors once told me,.."All you need to know in this business, boy, is your abc's & 10 numbers,along with a few puntuation marks." That is my point,..period. It doesn't take an artist to learn your abc's it's required knowlege at any grade school. Yet why do people think that if they own the software & equipment that we all should share the ends to a mean. As Steve put it give a man fish & he eats meal,...teach him to fish & he can learn to feed himself.

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...after all this rambling on is what happened to these basic trade skills needed for centuries & why do so many new people to this trade feel as tho they no longer need these skills?

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Simply put.....Money. The faster you can turn it, the more you make.

Its kinda like math. Remember when as school children, we had to learn our multiplication tables and learn to do the math in our heads? Now we have calculators.

The good news is that those who "truly" have skill are becoming fewer. This puts their talent on a higher plane and makes them able to command a higher price.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

It's at 2am and you look at your work and face up to the fact that you could do better and wipe it out and start again. Thats the kind of commitment that it takes to become one of the best at what you do and sadly, often, that level of commitment is lacking today.

It's too easy to just "cut and paste" and I believe thats this is the reason so much signage today looks so damn generic and boring.

But as has been hinted at, it's also the reason original signage stands out so much more these days.

If you really want to be original you gotta throw the clip art disks out the window, and knuckle down and go back to the drawing board.

now I'm ducking for cover.......yikes!

Glad to hear your up all night like some of us Slapping,Airbrushing,Pinstriping,Leafing the paints to the boards or whatever the surface!

They don't want to take the time to find what they need legitimately. They should either source it out and buy it... or physically adapt something else they have to be the actual thing they need. Almost anyone can scan a picture and then modify it to be what they need. Its not rocket science or high end art. Its a basic skill we all need to master. In the old days this was done with a sheet of tracing paper and then modified by hand with a pencil as necessary. Now it is done on a computer... same basic skill.

Only this takes time... and it is so much easier to just come here and beg for it.

Or they don't want to spend the money necessary for them to do the professional job they do. Fonts and clip art discs cost money. Some a little and some a lot. If you are in the business you need tools to do the job.

But it is so much cheaper to just come online and beg for it.

This board is a great resource to find sources and a wonderful source of information and inspiration. And that is what it is meant to be.

Hard words... but true??

I wouldn't be near as good at layout and design without this formidable training early on.

What is nedded possibly is an apprentiship program for sign people as they have in England to learn the skills needed. Maybe a two year program to cover the basics and a few more years to earn your masters certificate. Then you can set out on your own knowing you possess the skills nessessary to produce acceptable work.

So bring on the low buck shops Im ready.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Ryan E Young ]

You could develop a sketch using traditional methods, get a customer's approval & deposit, and schedule their work for delivery a week down the road. Truth is that many customers will not wait that amount of time so that you can have a sense of "personal fulfillment and job satisfaction". They can and will go where they can get a job done quickly and efficiently, and fits within THEIR time perameters. Like it or not, that too is a reality. Industry today functions on a "just in time" delivery schedule. With the introduction of computers as tools into the sign industry, a lot of customers expect you to give them whatever they want, when they want it, and if you're not equipped or prepared to supply their needs, they have lots of choices from those prepared to do so.

You can spend literally hours looking for a specific font or piece of clipart, more if you have a slow internet connection. What's the harm of coming here and asking your friends for a point in the right direction? Someone a while back asked about Bible clipart. I had spent a lot of time researching the same thing, and I was able to tell her what to buy and where to buy it.

Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot. It is easier to come here and ask other readers for a quick answer before launching a big search. Isn't sharing knowlege part of what we are here about?

I do agree with you about the people who come here looking for Fiddlesticks Bold Italic and the next post says "Check your e-mail"

This is an area that I have mixed feelings about. Being an old way painter, and a slow learner to boot, I would most likely have been dead in the water had an apprenticeship program been required in this country. I am self taught, trial and error, and looking back, the skills such as they are, were slow in coming. I started in '62, and didn't get a handle on layout until after 1980 when Signcraft hit the market.
Sketching and brush skills came fairly easily, layout was a whole 'nother ball of wax. Even today, I look at what others are doing, and I wonder what I am doing in this field.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]

I agree with your intent that the traditional skills are lacking nowadays, but clipart is clipart and is very useful.

I used to draw a quick scale design for customers right in front of them, sometimes upside down! (to their amazment). Sometimes I could visualize the sign in seconds and sometimes it would take days.

I used to cheat and use Lettraset on acitate and then blow it up to size on an overhead projector, only to hand trace it, then pounce it, then hand paint...I felt bad...then I learned a new way of cheating, same steps as above but this time I would pounce the pattern on to a substrate covered in pre-mask, then cut and roll. I have learned many ways of cheating since.

Then the 4b came out, and now its whatever (make a sign in corel?, c'mon )

Some people are justified in just using vinyl and there is a market for their services, but I'm willing to bet they don't get the same "feeling" that the old time ways can produce!

Late at night...great music on, no phone or human interuptions...paint mixed and pattern pounced...palleting the brush and the first stroke(never do your first stroke on the first letter). The computer just does not give me the same "feeling"

I hand lettered a rig with corogated sides in Nov. on site and it was grand. I hope to do more traditional work in the future and if I get paid more as mentioned above, even better?

It's good to get your brush wet once in a while

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]

I don't consider myself the next door neighbour Pizza Shop, One Slice, two slices, single topping or the works.
It will be ready in thirty minutes or it's free!

I am will to help train someone in this field as "Experience comes from job working."

But the customer has to know that everything isn't sitting in my shop on his command.

I allow them to know that within an appropriate time frame it will be done.

Even if at the last moment I have to work until 6 oclock in the morning for his 8 oclock appointment.
But in most cases it doesn't get that far out off hand.
And a quick call to say it's going to be a day or two late really doesn't hurt them.
Calling them into the shop and showing them why the delay is, will settle them down.

But the point Timi was saying is about sitting down with fresh talent and showning them that you really have to "Watch Paint Dry!"
There is truly a skill of knowing when you can overlay colour on top of each other without orange peeling the paints.

You can handle other tasks in between the other piece of work and keep the jobs in a flowing motion using nothing but your brain skills and paint.

Take a simple paper banner.
Some simple thought and an ounce of paint will make more money then the ton of vinyl and waste product from machines.

I have nothing against clipart.

The whole world and the ideas I see are a source of inspiration for me. Very little of what I create can I call truely original. I am constantly gathering ideas and images that I file away for future reference.

When I need an idea or reference and I can't locate it in my own library I set out immediately for my local Chapters store (any excuse to buy another book!). The web is something I love and is a great source of information and images. Very seldom do I find exactly what I am looking for no matter where I look... that would remove all the fun from my job in any case. Labels in the grocery store are wonderful inspiration.

But somehow I find an assortment of references from which I can draw an image. Sometimes I use the old fashioned tracing paper and sometimes my scanner is the tool of choice. Most often it is the good old fashioned pencil and paper.

I just resent (perhaps a bit strong) those who look for the easy/cheap way out as a matter of course.

I have nothing against modern technology or faster ways to do something... but often these ways can hinder good design if the basic skills aren't there.

Creativity happens best (in my humble opinion) when we work out at least some thumbnails with a good old fashioned pencil and paper. Not finished art... that happens so much easier on a computer.

Creativity happens in the brain. Everything else is just a tool.

In 'the old days' beginners were in a hurry to be sign professionals without seeing the need to take the time to practice and learn the skills necessary. I know because I was one of them. I got my education by doing it and my passion for my work drove me to get more skills and develop them.

Now it is exactly the same....only the tools have changed. We want to use a complex/powerful tool (computer) without learning the basics of design and drawing first.

I just wonder... how come you don't see Raymond Chapman, Mike Jackson, Gary Anderson, Bob Parsons, ... (I could list them forever and these names were picked at random from my brain for no other reason than they came to mind first) posting here for clipart? And it is my bet that they all use clip art.

Is it because they are way more talented than us?? Or is it because they took the time to develop their skills?

The folks above (and most others here) use modern tools like computers and plotters.

I take pride in my hand crafted work, but would really miss my computer if you took it away! But I could still do what I do, although not as efficiently perhaps.

Could the same be said for most signcrafters today??

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Creativity happens in the brain. Everything else is just a tool.

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This is the best quote I've seen on this board in a very long time!

Nettie

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]

Don't you know, that in today's world....INSANT GRATIFICATION takes too long?

Being a dinasaur, I did learn the hard ways to do things....and have progressed to a computer....BUT, I do have the necessary skills to use the computer as another tool, to make the old methods work the way that I want them to! I am not limited to published fonts and clipart!!!

If you are new in this biz...I strongly urge you to get to the next meet that you can attend! There you will find others more than willing to teach you how to use your puter and even a brush!
I gar-on-teee that your next sign will be at least 100% better than what you have been doing! Not only that, these meets are great fun! AND you will meet some of the nicest, most fun people around!

Just my very humble opinion!

Sheeeshhh!...now all I gotta do is learn to type!

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Si Allen ]

I think I mentioned it to several people there that in my opinion alot of cas & desktop publishing programs should include these basic fundamentals in the first step of their tutorial.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

Speed and effeciency. That is what a customer demands. Most customers walk in with a logo done. They say put it on a sign. I put it on a sign. I try to suggest and fit it around what they want but it never ceases to amaze me. They think that a sign is just words on a board. They forget the rest. Layout and colour are secondary to speed.

I had two customers that came into our shop last month that had the sign blank already up and the logo that they wanted already made. You can only guess what happened from there. The wording doesn't fit on that sign.

I am printing this out to read all the replies. Without any other opinion said, I whole heartedly agree with you!

Just to state yesterday I continued teaching my employee to hand letter by letting him do 2 paper signs for the first time. He did a pretty good job.

I guess you can say the apprentise program is alive in my shop.

The downside of looking at the past of signpainter shows that most of this knowledge was zealously guarded. The apprentice could expect the #@%*-end of the stick in order to prove he was worthy of this knowledge. A woman certainly did not qualify and certain forgeiners were thought to create volumes of inferior work.

I've worked for 36 shops - and in some it became up to me to give the test to the newbies that came scratching at our door. Not one of them in all those years had any clue as to how to start the job - let alone how to finish it up or how to make it look good. It bothers the crap out of me to know that those are the people who went out and bought vinyl machines, and ran me out of town.

I once took a test for the county sign shop and it involved 5 signs that had to be done by lunch time, all by hand - 5 people showed up and I was the only one that completed the test. The other 4 had such a mess going on, gold leaf all over their faces, paint all over their hands, I couldn't watch - but I refused the job because it was really just for banging out dull county stuff. One of the duds got the job - that's why government signs look like they do.

Working at Disneyland the past year has paid very well, but everything we get is structured by "graphic designers" (There's a swear word for sign painters!) and my lettering and layout skills have suffered tremendously as a result- -I don't do that anymore, and for the past 35 years I've basically spent all day at it. I was laid off this morning, though, so I'm looking forward to getting the shop put back in order and contacting some old customers.
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"Lost to Technology" - what a good way to say it!
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and I like the saying - "Give a man a fish, etc. - teach him to fish and you will create such a liar that the truth will not be in him." Ha ha
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Man........I'm in hog Heaven !!!

Ps..............Gotta nuther stick of ram for this box.......sure do speed up my solitare game.......!!

This might be of some limited interest to newer folk. warning, i tend to go on a bit.

Before books or CDs of generic art were available, artists would keep files of images they had clipped out of books and magazines. They would refer to the clipped art file when they wanted to draw something, or trace it.

Sign artists have used clipped art files for at least 100 years. My 1902 edition of "Sign Painting" instructs beginners to maintaing a clipping file of pictures and ornaments. Some ornaments are now called "dingbats". Dingbats is a word the fisrt used -in this context - by typographer Herman Zaph to name his now-famous pi-font, Zaph Dingbats. Now people use dingbats to refer to special or unusual characters).

There is nothing new about asking a "sign man" for some clipped art.

The name "Clip-Art" used to be a trade name, by the way, for a company that began in the 50s selling books of cartoons and other printers "cuts" to the graphic arts trade. ("cuts" refers to photo engravings that are ganged onto a large sheet and the individual pictures are then cut out of it).

The biggest difference between clip-art and clipping files is that clip-art is intended to be "generic art" and clipping files are for reference use. it can be used for a variety of purposes. designers use the word to refer to unimaginative illustrations. It is a shortcut.

A clipping file is really a file for inspiration and detail. You want to draw the horse just right, so you study the photo to get the detail right, and make sure your drawing has the right proportions. You might trace a picture, but you're probably tracing selectively to give it your own style.

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So, if you want to improve your design skills (see, i DID wander back to the original topic!), ask for reference art, and learn to make your own cartoons and illustrations. Your work will look better for it and you'll be able to offer your customer something that no other sign maker could offer them.

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[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: timi NC ]

But like ya say......It was used for "REFERANCE" and Not just an easy way out for those too lazy to learn their craft !!