Happy holidays.... All comments (except the girdle thing) were referring to Glenn's employee. Trust me, I'm compassionate.

I believe what Dana was saying was that $ is relative to where you are. Here, in BFE $9.00 is a good wage. Would I think it were a good wage if I were in say, NYC? probably not. But then, an apartment in NYC can cost over $1000 a month for a modest apartment. Here, if you're paying $400/month, you have a mansion with all utilities paid. So, while you think $9 is low, it probably is for your area. But let me tell you, if you were offering someone with little or not experience a job starting at $7.50/hour (what I think Glenn said she started at) in this little old coal town (where all the mines have closed up) you'd have a line 2 miles long of people wanting to beg you for that job.

Another point was brought up was this employees situation. That is her problem. You are her employer, not her father. It is not your responsibility to make sure she can support herself and her kids. You have a job that needs done, it pays $x. If that doesn't pay enough for her to support her situation, that's her problem. You didn't cause her to be in that situation.

When I was in high school, I had a co-op job (in afternoons I went to work instead of class, arranged through vo-tech). After graduation, I stayed on for a few years. There was a big job that came in and they hired another guy to help out. When work slowed down, I was laid off. The a##hols manager told me "well, (the guy) has a wife to support." If I had known then what I know now, I would've owned that manager. This guy had a wife to support because she was too lazy to go get a job so he gets my job. Granted, I still lived with my parents. Did I mention I had been working since 14 and that I supported myself and gave my parents money as I could seeing as my dad is disabled? And, I forgot to mention that the majority of the work he produced was returned to him to fix because he couldn't spell or accurately take a written word and type that into the drawing? Yes, this guy had just bought a house. His parents gave him half the price of the house as a gift.

Glenn, if you're paying more than most shops around you, let her go. It's not your responsbility to support her. One thing I wanted to mention was I saw a post on here a while back about a bonus system someone had set up. It was based on monthly shop income (I think) and had deductions for errors that cost the shop more than $20 or so. Maybe if someone remembers it, they can tell you more about it. Maybe that's something to consider.

I'm not attacking single parents, I understand it can be hard. I'm saying it's the person's responsibility, not the employers. I'm sure I'll get flamed for my opinion and quite frankly I don't give a damn.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]

Seattle weather is rainy today...however I for once was glad to see the rain...so I could tell if I fixed my damn roof or not. (looks like I did)

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: cheryl nordby ]

Ok here is how I see it....

Glenn you have done nothing wrong, like someon else said, Your NOT her father. its not your job to support her. However you do have a business to run and an employee that you already have trained is more valuable than an experienced person from another shop in alot of cases, because the habits they have are habits you have hopefully molded. I say this from experience. I had an employee once that I lost to the almighty dollar, yes by a dollar too. This guy came to me with very little experience and I trained him to do the work the way I wanted it done. He was very good at what he learned and was a joy to work with, the guy was and is still a freind. After he left to pursue other ventures, I hired someone with alot more experience and even came equipped with his own tools, at alot higher rate of pay (experience usually demands higher pay). Anyway, this guy came to work for me and in the first week of employment I had to hold his hand on jobs that I can teach a high school kid to do and know that they could do it right, the bottom line is the guy never made it to the second week because he always wanted to do it his way. So much for paying more for the experienced guy.

And then ther eis the story of one of my previous places of employment where I worked for a salary plus commission... Lets just say that the guy kept giving me more responsibilities with NO increase in commissions or salary, my hours per week increased because when I take on ANY job I take it very personally and seriously, but my income went down due to the increased time spent dealing witht he new responsibilities. when i went to the boss about my dilemma he kinda looked at me with a blank stare and seemed to ignore all my concerns. It was a wednesday, I reminded him that I was off the next two days and Monday morning I walked into his office and told him I was leaving. He said how come you didnt come talk to me about it first....... (HELLO!)

The problem with this type of communication is that you can't really get across the humor of a little innocent chain-yanking. Just so you don't think I'm a male chauvanist uncompassionate pig...here's a little story for you:

Some years ago I was art director for a good size company. I needed to hire an employee in the design department and happened to receive a resume from a guy I went to college with and knew mostly as an aquaintance. He lived in a nearby town. I thought it would be neat to hire in a college alumni. His portfollio was average to so-so, and his current job was flippin' burgers at Burger King.

I felt so sorry for him, I hired him thinking time and experience might develope him into something. I feel like I saved the guy from a crappy existence.

Guess what? He didn't get any better over about 5 years and repayed my kindness by becoming an unmotivated, unreliable, work-shirking employee. I talked to him several times about his performance and encouraged him as best I could. He just kept screwing me. I didn't have it in me to fire him although I felt like I should have. Didn't have the heart to boot the slob out into the cold.

I even rallied on his behalf to get (undeserved) raises. And this is where the rub is. You would think when you got a guy a 10% raise that he would show some gratitude by working harder and trying to improve his skills. Not so. The guy got even lazier.

People that are in it for the money only, will rarely be satisfied with the job. I eventually moved on and the guy that took over my position finally canned him.

Checked out the site. Very cool. How did you get into that? I'm guessing you're not a big Rosie O'Donnell fan.

Check out SVI (My cuz owns and manufactures these) and you might be interested in JP Enterprises products...very high tolerance stuff but without the history and nostalgia probably of what you're into. http://www.sviguns.com/ and http://www.jpar15.com/

Oops had to edit...forgot the websites for ya.

Checked out your website too. Man you guys are ambitious with the big stuff! Now I know humans might built the pyramids instead of aliens!

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]

I don't think you'll get flamed. I think people would pretty much agree with you. Job pays $X, and they know it coming in. What's min wage these days anyway? $6.50 or $7 an hour?

You're lucky out there in Montana...the last of the old west. We JUST passed a "right to carry" law here in Michigan which was a bit of a surprise. We have the likes of Carl Levin, David Bonior and a host of other bleeding heart Socialists that want to restrict and tax every thing you do.

Our Governor ramrodded the law through somehow and we now join a host of other states that have adopted conceal carry laws. Guess what though? As soon as it was passed, there is already a swelling of Freedom Grabbers trying to get it repealed. I had a lady taking signatures at a Michigan State basketball game ask me to sign a petition to put the law up on a vote to repeal. I told her "Not a snowball's chance in hell, I value my 2nd amendment rights to protect myself and family." Then I walked off. She was undetered.

I wonder if she would think differently if her car broke down in the middle of Detroit late at night. Hahaha....she'd be toast.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: RonniesTintSigns ]

you tell him cheryl!!!!

I hate to say it but I think your employee is the exception, not the rule.

My cousin owns a small business with about 12 or 13 employees. He is kind and generous, and would give anyone the shirt off his back. He buys them lunch almost every day...and I'm talking about taking them out to decent restaurants...not McDonald's. He has helped them out when they have gotten themselves into financial trouble, and is generous with perks and bonuses.

Guess what? Most of them steal everything they can when he isn't looking and when he's off to a trade show...the one honest person there tells him everyone dinks around and slows production to a snails pace.

You do have a good employee and I suggest you keep on doing what you're doing to keep him.

I think it's naive to think that paying someone a little more per hour will transform them into the perfect employee.

I think it's all about attitude right from the beginning. A good worker with a good attitude WILL eventually make more money because they will conduct themselves in a manner to deserve it and seek out a way to increase their skills and earning potential.

I do agree that if you have a particular employee that is unusually loyal, hardworking, and company oriented...he/she is worth the money to keep them around if the position they hold is a hard one to fill.

You can't pay exagerated wages for menial tasks though...that is just bad business. And it is menial tasks that Glenn's employee was performing. The fact remains that most people probably feel they are worth more than what they are being paid....

also did this employee come to you with an ultimatum? (i am going to quit if you don't give me a raise!)

seems if she is a good employee you might compromise a little, say offer a dollar raise on the hourly wage and another dollar next year at this time.

if she has a good work and production record then that should count for something.

mark

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]

Pay should be dependent upon the tasks being completed (if they actually get completed), the attitude of the employee and their willingness to take on more responsibility.

If all she's there to do is earn a paycheck, all she gets to do is weed vinyl and $9/hour plus benefits is more than generous, I cant think of any other place on the planet that would offer such a deal.

I wish I could have said it that nicely in so few words.

You aren't responsible for her being a single mother. I was a single parent of two for a while and it's a tough juggling act...but you didn't put her there. Maybe she will need to wait tables an evening or two to help out.

For the work she does is sounds like decent money. If she's a valued employee, try to keep her somehow. Sounds like you've tried to train her in other areas without success so maybe you need someone else who can produce what she produces and help you in other areas. The sad part is that you may train 10 just to find one you like as well.

Firstly, what does a "living wage" mean? How many people should one job support? If a person has six children, a dependent spouse and an ailing parent to support, should they expect more from their job than a single person would get for the same job? An employer cannot adjust the value of the job based upon the employee's personal circumstances. So, how does one put a value on the job? Mike is right; we'd all love to be able to pay $50/hr, but it's not possible.

Glenn, from what you've said, I think you're in the right ballpark. You're paying more than other shops in your area. With the insurance, it's more like $11.40 per hour. As others have pointed out, a pittance in one area of the country is a fortune in another area, so comparisons are difficult.

I concur with Todd about Ronnie's employee. Ronnie could just as easily give the same deal to another person and it wouldn't have the same effect. It is all about attitude. For all those who are appreciative there will be at least one who will take advantage of the situation and believe they are entitled to more. I've come to realize that no one method of compensation will satisfy everyone. For all those who are motivated by salary as Mark suggested, there will as many who are the opposite, as Glenn has experienced. Bonuses can get everyone working as a team, or they can cause contention. No method is without its problems, and it's one of the biggest dilemas in a business, right behind setting prices for your products.

Like Glenn, we try to be as accommodating as possible as a supplement to whatever wages we can afford to pay. We had an employee who called to say she was going to be late because she missed her bus...then she showed up 2 days later! All the considerations were totally one-sided. We also have an employee like Ronnie's who has been here 12 years.

From reading between the lines here, Glenn, I don't think you'd be able to satisfy this employee with a raise. And if her wage is raised substantially, what about everyone else? How will you keep the balance? As a matter of interest, what kind of job did she get and how significant was the pay raise?

I worked for a guy...hehehe! At that time I had 12 years experience hand lettering, and camera ready work for silk screeners and printing companies. I worked all day in the field and all night after my girls were tucked in. The summer time was a blur of paint and babysitters. Winter downtime, I had cash in the bank, and got to catch up on my crafts, knitting, crochet and the like, but more importantly, be with my girls and entertain family over the holidays! I let somebody at church make me feel bad, coz I might be setting a bad example for my girls, because I wasn't "at work" everyday and not seeing much of them over the summer, from over doing it. I wanted a steady check with insurance so bad, that when offered, I listened to what this guy had to offer.

The shop was for signs of all kinds, cans, sandblasted (the whole sheebang) and screenprinting, and they wanted me to be their in house camera ready artist...and fill in handlettering, making patterns, creating tah dahs on the gerber for government seals, burning screens, covering the phones with creditors and customers, if they needed me.

I was given a small room and a 3 foot stack of negatives (not folders, just negs) that were (at the time) in the floor of a bigger room. They weren't in a stack when they were given to me...just scattered from wall to wall, it was hideous. I had to sit in the floor and pile them up and figure a way to file them. I had no idea who they belonged to, or what went with what.

I was offered $10/hour, 35 hours per week (so they wouldn't have to pay insurance to a "fulltimer") and was promised insurance when they could afford it. (constantly projected for the next 3 mos)

I had everything in files by the end of the second day...off the floor and everything.

I cut ruby/amberlithe like the wind, and cleaned up positives with rapidographs and exactos.

Within 2 mos. newspaper folk were hovering around the office, doing stories on the sudden rise of quality and creativity of our work and the praise of customers on our efficiency. I was told to say "no comment" and leave for lunch hour when they arrived. (no, my name was not mentioned in any of the articles)

The boss was charging $45/hour for my time, with an hour minimum on each piece/color of the artwork.

I was whacking out as much as 30 work orders a day. At least 50% of these jobs were 2/color, a strong outline with a knock out for oomph, for example. A lot of them had white underlays and we began using puff inks and thermal shirts (change colors in sun/heat). I really enjoyed the challenges each customer brought us. I was creating letterstyles and logos for people right and left. Some of my work, cut in seconds, mind you, was sold to the customer for a big coin with rights that would not let me reproduce it again.

I never took breaks, except to pick up my lunch, till the last couple of months when the bosses wife literally drug me out of my office and made me sit outside for 15 minute stints. This just made me sleepy hehehe. She thought hanging over a light table would be bad for my health.

S'anyway...if I'm whackin 25 work orders in a 7 hour day, at $45 per piece, lets say 40 pieces per day, that makes an average of $1800 per day for the employer. He gives me $70 per day.

That's $9,000/wk he got, I took home $312/week. (minus taxes)

...$40,500/mo he got...I took home $1,404/mo.

...$486,000/yr he got...I took home $16,848/yr.

(This was just the profit from lil ole me, there were 3-8 other folks working there during those two years!)

(I knew there was a reason I hated math! The bottom line sucked for me LOL)

I very rarely received the 15% commission they promissed when I chased down customers (okay, twice I did). On my own time, and my own dime I had to get a babysitter and (go to the Falcon Inn Bar for instance, an hour away) and talk "shirts." I'd come back with a sketch they liked, a check (deposit), and an order. I created the artwork, decided the mesh of the screen, burned the screens, mixed the ink, ordered the shirts, folded em as they came out of the dryer, delivered them and snagged the closing check, and they said, "you have to remind us about the commission!"

It got to the point that most of the customers thought the boss and his wife were fictitious characters, they never showed up 'cept fridays to dole out measley checks, drunk and arguein with each other.

I stuck it out for 2 years, hopin to get insurance. They instead bought more equipment, and subsequently lost the whole shop because they couldn't juggle the payments very well.

I got laid off and wonder, why did I try so hard?

I had to sign a document that said I would work exclusively with them, no one else. I honored this and lost touch with all my steady people. It sure sucked to be me!

I know the day I was packing my personal things, I was secretly pleased when i heard a customer at the front counter, "What do you mean she doesn't work here anymore? How could you let her go? She made all my letterstyles, how am I supposed to get this done now? Where did she go? I have to find her!" I think this was the first day in the two years, somebody caused me to feel important...acknowledged even.

I had already made arrangements to move to West Virginia and utilize 6 mos of unemployment while looking for work. I had 4 sisters up there I recently found out I had and no clue as to how hard it would be to find work.

Two years later, very hungry, I came back to the city (bleche) and most everybody I knew with quills in their life, had tossed em aside and were working in convenient stores. Vinyl signs were going for $20-25 a pop and nobody remembered who I was.

Dang.

I was reading this thread and I just thought about when I tried to work a "steady job" as a single parent, my trunk didn't have a good insurance plan hehehe! The promise of insurance for myself and my children, was my carrot and I felt taken advantage of. Now, the thought of bending over backwards to build someone else's dream makes me cringe.

I agree with most others here. $9.50 is jack when yer on yer own, with young uns. The insurance and childcare thrown in woulda made me a solid employee, since that's what I spent my money on over a 1,200/mo. budget including: rent, utilities, sparse groceries and gas. The only joy rides we took during those two years, was to look at Christmas lights on Christmas eve.

Glenn, I would have brought you coffee if I'd had to, for the deal you've given her. Of course I'm older now and I have more insurance hehehe!

In this day and time, in her shoes, given a lot of folks are losing their jobs to the recession, I would think twice about rocking the boat.

The raise issue should not be sompn that flares up, but is planned so that both of you know what to expect. If she can't make it on this salary, then she should find another, with your blessing, would cut down the worry of a dishonorable departure.

The cost of signage is basically the same as it was when I started 27 years ago. Minimum wage was a buck ninety-eight (roughly), then jumped to $2 sompn an hour. Sheesh, I was making $10 an hour back then as an apprentice. So nearly 30 years later, it's still $10 an hour...phwahaha! That sucks!

I agree, her family is not your sacrifice. You have enough on your plate, Glenn. I tried an employee once but he spent all his time wasting mine...so I gave up on that idea...$2,400 in paychecks, later.

We can share our stories here, and offer advice all day long...what matters is whether either of you are happy and if she makes you enough money to warrant you're paying her. It's business.

Sorry I got so wordy, but I constantly leave so much out, I get emails asking me to explain, or requiring the history of my thoughts. S'anyway, good luck. I hope you're both able to resolve everything and get back to work in a peaceful environment!

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Linda Silver Eagle ]

So here's my nickle....

I think the most important aspect of this post that should NOT be overlooked is:

Maritial status, race, sex, religion, disability or how many kids this person has, WHATEVER!! (Or anything else that I may have omitted). It doesn't matter!!! If any consideration in the above has anything to do with whether this employee should receive a raise or not, you are setting you company up for a discrimination lawsuit, anyway you slice it!!

I firmly believe that you need to leave your heart out of this kind of decision and rely soley on BUSINESS LAW!!
-------------------------------------------------

Chris,
If you would like to hire me and go after your former employer, I think we'll both make out AOK.

Mark Fair,
How do you make that little dude run across my screen and pee?? I MUST find out where you get all of those neat toys!!

***********

Mark,
Yes, we gave her a week's pay as a Christmas bonus. Also, about once a month or so, we send her to the gas station to fill up her car on our fleet account. We also provided her opportunities to make more money. If she sells a job, she automatically gets 10% of the gross right off the top. This is up and above what we pay her if she is the one who produces the job as well.

As for the ultimatum, no she never made one. Her notice was a complete surprise.

She's a good worker when she wants to be. But sometimes she can be pretty slack too. A week before her notice, she had a 24"x72" double-faced panel to letter. It was a simple two color vinyl job. The lettering was already cut and premasked. It took her 3 hours for what should have taken her 45 minutes on a bad day. When I spoke to her about it, she became very defensive and arguementative. Other days, she can run rings around everybody and never break a sweat.

***********

Diane,

Thanks. I'd like to see the plan. We are suppose to meet with our SBA rep next week to see what things we can come up with some incentive program. I very much want to be able to pay everyone more, but unless the production is there we simply don't have the money.

The Lord himself had a few thoughts on this.
As a God fearing man, I've had to put the fear of God in others. GIT BACK TO WORK!

Take comfort in these thoughts - Pray and the answer will come to you.

The Laborers
Matthew 20:1-16

Matthew 20:1-16 is a kingdom parable dealing with economics. It is called the Parable of the Laborers.

In this parable an householder hired laborers to work in his vineyard. Some began to work early in the morning, some at 9:00, some at noon, others at 3:00 in the afternoon, and still others at 5:00.

In the evening when the householder paid his laborers he gave each the same pay. Twice in this parable the householder said when he hired the laborers, "Whatsoever is right l will give you."

Those who had been hired first had agreed to labor throughout the day for a certain amount, but when they saw that those who had labored only a few hours received the same as they did they murmured against the goodman of the house.

The householder answered, 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?"

There are undoubtedly many lessons and applications in the parable, but one seems to stand out very clearly; namely, that human beings, as such, have certain rights. They are entitled to the necessities of life and every person is entitled to enough buying power so that his or her daily necessities can be supplied. While the householder seemed to be overly generous to the late comers, and not so generous with those who labored all day, he twice said he would do what was right.

Our old age assistance, social security, unemployment compensation are all based on this Christian and scriptural principle.

These provisions are not perfect nor are they adequate, but they are steps in the right direction.

As the Lord indicated in the parable, when that is done some will murmur, but as the Lord said, it will be because "thine eye is evil." They, too, will say "something for nothing," which is not true. A dividend from a prosperous business is not something for nothing.

One of the most important functions of any civil administration is to constantly provide the people with an adequate and a controlled buying power. And this could and should be done without creating a debt and without any interest payment. This will come, and no amount of evil murmuring will be able to stop it.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: RonniesTintSigns ]

You cannot pay based on life circumstances. You pay based on ability.

I have lived on alot less than $ 9.00 per hour.

You are VERY generous to pay $ 350 per month insurance. I assume you are underwriting the health insurance of the kiddies. (your a nice dad)

If she is highly productive and can be trained into more productive processes than make the commitment to her with a higher wage. If the job can be accomplished with lower priced labor and turnover is not a factor for efficient material usage and quality let her go.

What we do:

Starting Wage $ 9.00 hour. We pay 100% medical on the employee only..no dependants.
After 1 year 1 week paid vacation, second year 2 weeks per year.

All Federal holidays paid except President's day and MLK. We pay for the Friday after Thanksgiving.

We have a retirement/profit sharing plan. We started this in 1992. The company funds 100% of the profit sharing bonus. 2001 will be the first year that we will not bonus 15% of annual salary. We will cut to 10% for 2001.

We give a Christmas bonus to each employee. My top administrator received $ 1250.00, the next 4 received $1000.00 each, we have a single mom who started in May she received $ 250.00 and part time received $ 50.00.

We have a birthday party for each employee. This consists of order carryout from the restaurant of their choice. We also provide a cake.

FAMILY FIRST: If anybody needs time to take a relitive, child to doctor we let them take the time...anytime.

All of my employees like to work here. They are very loyal. We could not suceed without them.

Employment Expenses (Per Year):
“Holidays”:
( Time paid in full from which there is no direct benefit to the company)
Vacation pay...2weeks
Statutory/company/civic holidays…approx.10 days per year...2 weeks
Paid Coffee Breaks 2x15min=1/2 Hour per day...2.5 weeks
Misc. Breaks that contribute nothing to company revenue or maintenance 2.5 weeks
-ex. Personal phone calls, bathroom breaks, idle chatting, etc.(1/2hr/day)
Minimum total per year 9 weeks

Other employment costs that have no direct benefit to the business:
Employer’s matching contributions
Workers compensation
Sick leave or having ill employee at work that is not working at normal capacity but getting full wages.
Fixing mistakes caused by employee’s negligence (Time and Material)

Other possible expenses:
Medical Insurance
Group benefits
Funeral or family emergency leave or payment of full wages while employee is working at diminished capacity during these times.
Overtime pay

I accept these realities and for the most part I enjoy employing people. It's more than just money, I could make more money scaling down and working by myself like I used to, but it's nice to have back up, a friendly face and outside experience and mentors right under my roof every day. Besides, if I didn't have this size of operation, I wouldn't be able to justify all my neat toys...er tools

Anyway, I had a thought about her on-again,off-again motivation and her complaint of being under compensated. It means a lot more work for you, but if you could devise a formula that would incorporate a base pay with a piece work incentive, it shifts a lot of the responsibility for her take-home to her. Plus, you're off the hook when she dinks around on a simple job like the one you described above. The reasoning is simple: if she wants to make more money, all she has to do is be more productive. Believe me, I know that this is much easier said than done, but it's an approach I haven't seen presented yet in this thread.

You sound like a fair and generous employer, and she is surely lucky to work for a boss who cares so much about this issue.