The points made are hilarious as if it really makes a difference of what another person considers the right thing to do. I wonder if the old sign men worried about using cartoon charactors and to what extent but then again, they all could draw, right? hahahahaha
Oh poor little Calvin, I can't put this on your vehicle cause I don't think its polically correct, yeah right!
Lets all show our intelligence by re-wording the paragraph so everyone could understand that there aren't any quicky-sticky sign businesses here on the BB! hahahahahahaha.

As myself, just a pinstriper I have gotten to know just about everyones style of work which I have to know and do precisely in order to stay in business doing repairs on crashed vehicles and if there was a cartoon prior to the accident I would have to repair it. Does this mean I'm guilty and can be taken to court. If so, pick me up at 8 and don't be late!
My friend Jon and I did a PT Cruiser some months back where the lady wanted the EEyor painted on the trunk among the graphics and to tell you the truth, if she wanted the EEyor peeing on the Tasmanian devil while giving a bl--job to Mickey Mouse we would have done it because thats what our job is. In my years of doing this work I never worried about things like this because theres no need to and if someone wants to use a charactor for whatever reason, it never enters my mind for me to break it down and question what they want. I don't however do work or use colors which I think will be ugly or do nothing for my ego which is all that matters to me.
I'm in this business to make money and I totally love what I do and never look back and hope I can do this til they pry the brush from my cold dead hands.

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]

A while back, I posted two scans - one of a logo design (in a 'best of' logo book) and one of a signshop in the UK that had pretty much copied it to a T. The views were varied as you can imagine. Most said "oh there is NOTHING original, so there is no problem (your choice of verbage here - copying, being influenced by, emulating, BS etc.) someone else's work".

Yet here we are again, over a rediculously cute line drawing. And the strange part is - a lot of the ones that said "oh yes, there is nothing wrong with that" to that unknown artist's rendering of ivy, are up in arms over some 'celebrity artiste' creation being used outside the scope of a sunday paper.

And I might add, after he abandon it. (call it what you will, thats the bottom line)

Today's world pretty much ****es me off in the way it double standards things and carries political correctness like a merit badge. It's a very common internet thing right now to swap and trade copyrighted music, and a lot of reputable magazines, tv shows and websites will show you how to do it all day long. It's almost a damn American right to partake in this exchanging. Yet the very same people get mad and scream about the 'warez' community (illegal swapping of programs, clipart, etc.). As if there was any less work or intelligence needed to create recorded media than digital data/media. Perhaps its the fact that SO many people can make music, and after all, if *I* dont like that music, it's not worth real money so what do I care if someone gives it away for free. Programs, clipart, games and other pieces of software on the other hand.. why those are created by sub-Einsteins and of course they deserve to be compensated everytime a button is clicked.

Be it a likeness of a little boy juicing an automobile emblem or the latest single from Sweet Mamie and her Bayou Biscuit Boys, your view and opinion shouldnt change.

If you have no problem with yourself or someone else copying a Tramp Warner design, why do you have a problem with copying a Warner Bros. design???

Like bellybuttons, everyone has an opinion. I whole heartedly appreciate and revel in a person with a strong convictions - even if I dont agree with them. What irks the crap out of me is someone who will argue one way and then the other, depending on the POPULAR opinion or what they feel is 'politically correct' for the moment. Not to mention, what has or doesnt have perceived value to them.

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: RonniesTintSigns ]

I've seen all kinds of different "little" guys peeing on everything out there..why does everyone assume it's Calvin?

And the "Calvin" guy you're talking about, doesn't look exactly like the Calvin I've seen in the strips....in fact, I wouldn't have even known it was "Calvin" until I started reading all this tripe.

As far as comments about him being in the wrong business if he can't draw his own? Maybe he was just trying to save time out of his busy day...he was just doing it as a favor for his nephew for crying out loud. Probably just wanted to download it and cut it and be done with it.

I suppose none of you has ever recorded a favorite movie on a second vcr for your collection so you wouldn't have to buy one at the store?

What about downloading MP3's or recording a friends cd on your cd writer?

What about using Sign Foam....don't you feel guilty because you didn't invent it yourself and aren't the only guy doing signs that look the same?

What do you think about making your own version of the "Grain Frame" for $75 instead of paying the originator $500?

I understand the concept of copyright laws....but if something is changed marginally it is legal. Give the guy a break. Waterson should be flattered. Personally, if he gave away potential millions in merchandising because he was too much of a purist...I think the guy has a screw loose.

C'mon guys....this is slowing down...we gotta break 100. Post! Post! Post!

Much ado bout nothin.

Sorry, couldn't find one of him peeing. I have to wonder about that little hand gesture though.

By the way I totally agree with Shawn's post.
Sure we all get to know soon enough that you throw a post up there and you can expect the full gamut of helpful, indifferent, & out of left field crappola to come your way but you get a guy posting less then 20 times here & he asks a simple question, Uncle peabody blasts away about the "speck" in Todds eye instead of concerning HIMself with the frikkin' plank in his own!

And then all this talk about the measley $2.50 of it all. Don't people read that a guy just wants to give a kid what he asks for? Sure, it's tasteless, but it is in the public domain, kid sees it, kid wants it, dad's bro can bust one out pronto, & get back to work. Where does the profitability, business ethic, moral high ground, or the high-end sign customers opinion fit in there?

So btw did you get flamed shawn?

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]

I spent several minutes searching for the original post, but I guess the words I thought would have been in it were not, so I couldn't find it. Guessd I'll just re-post it myself. I forget who the artist was, but since he did a little borrowing himself, I guess I won't mind my posting his work here again.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]

But I think we got it all worked out...

Thanks for all the interesting points of view, my e-mail has never been so busy.

have a safe and happy new year folks!!

Anyway, it was for fun. It was for a laugh or two. I wish I could say that you will not see me on the board here ever again because I have retired and moved to some exotic paradise thanks to the bounty of profits made from my twisted mind... unfortunately, this is not the case.

I have probably made 2 or 3 hundred and given them all away along with a couple of versions of American flags since 911. I had two guys, brothers, ask for a larger version for which I charged about $35.00 each. I guess if I wanted to market this, which I did not and do not, maybe I could make out great. Someone above mentioned about orders in the thousands... for something like that I'd consider it, I have to eat you know.

I feel good that something that I had contributed to this board was looked at, considered, and copied to god knows what hard drive on the planet earth.

Thanks and have a wonderful new year. Let's all order some peeing guy stickers from me a a large profit to me so that I can spend the remainder of this Wisconsin winter with Doug Allan in warmer weather. Again , Thanks.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Jeffrey Vrstal ]

Thanks, Todd.

I'm not upset with Todd, but in hindsight I should have removed his original request. Lawyers are paid to argue if the Calvin artwork is a violation of copyright law and only a judge's opinion really matters in the end. What is more important to me is that it violates the Law Of Letterville.

When you register to have the privilage of posting here in Letterville, you first have to read and agree to the Laws Of Letterville. This dosen't mean you have to like the law, just that you respect Letterville enough to live within the law. One of those laws reads like this...

"The Letterhead WebSite, Letterville, and the Shortreed Family strictly prohibits the use of this site as a means to request coyprighted artwork and fonts. Please respect the copyrights of the designers and foundries. If you feel compelled to \"steal\" from those people, please go to another site to do it.
We do encourage all designers using this site to build the cost of fonts and clip art into your project's costs."

It's pretty clear. At first I reasoned that Todd's request was pretty innocent. He never asked specifically for Calvin, just the little guy peeing. Most of us knew it was "Calvin" and probally a violation of some copyright law somewhere, but where was the harm. After all, it wasn't going to be copied and sold for profit. Is there any of us who have never violated the law in some way?

As the thread developed, I began to put myself in Mr. Waterson's shoes. Most of us have experienced the pain and frustration of someone using our designs and/or sketches without our permission and compensation. In our society, original ideas, as well as our labour has a value. How would those who argue the use of Calvin is ok feel if it was your logo and/or likeness being used? I know at least one of the posters is very upset over a couple others "stealing his logo." What's the difference? Are we only free to borrow the ideas of the wealthy and those we do not know?

That's not all. When you request questionable material here, thousands of people see it. If I make a decision to speed or run a red light, I'm smart enough to make sure a cop isn't nearby. When I get caught, I can argue that I don't agree with the law, but it's going to cost me time and money. It never ceases to amaze me how people expose themselves to risk of procecution by posting these requests. The kind, giving people that respond stating they have sent the questionable material are also running an unnecessary risk. Is it really worth it?

The bottom line is this. Don't request stuff like this here in Letterville. Don't ask to borrow our tools either. We're here to share everything we have learned to improve the quality of your work and perhaps save you from making some of the mistakes we made. I'm sure not the grumpy old guy next door. (Loved that reference by the way.) Invest in yourself and your business.

Raven/2002

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]

The fact remains that Todd didn't ask for "Calvin" peeing. Are you a mind reader? And the guy that I have seen that is supposedly Calvin sure as heck doesn't look like him to me! He looks like a ****ed off kid who could be any boy in America.

Copyright laws don't apply to Parodies anyway do they? It's like showing a photo of Clinton giving Monica Lewinsky a ride on a cigar. Neither one can sue you for using their likeness because it is a parody.

How many goofy versions of Mona Lisa have I seen in my lifetime? Seems to me like someone "owns" the rights to that art. But used in a parody, it's defenseless.

Go with your initial gut instinct Steve....it is insignificant and not worthy of kicking people off the board over.

Todd doesn't seem like a "thief" to me.

Jeffery, I just checked out your website. Good looking antique signage. You mentioned political cartooning so I thought I'd see more there. Maybe it's not your best work, but I did stumble on Hal!
Thanks again for a real good chuckle. I confess I did run a sample 3 up edge print of that & the first 3 guys who saw it walked away stoked with their free bonus sticker.

HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!!!!!
MY WE ALL GET ALONG BETTER IN 2002!!!!
IF SOMEONE WANTED MY WORK AND CAME TO A PLACE LIKE THIS TO GET IT I WOULD BE PROUD NOT UPSET!!!

I’ve heard this twice now “ if you can’t draw maybe you’re in the wrong business”.

You don’t have to be able to draw to be in this business, not with all the clip art & graphic programs out there. What you do need is a good sense of design,…….. things like, form, balance, layout, colour, aesthetic, etc …………Maybe we need to define draw. I’m a draftsmen by profession. I can draw, but I can’t illustrate worth sh*t. In other words I can draw a house, even render it, throw in some trees, people, shade & shadow etc. But if you asked me to draw a guy riding a camel through a football match while, drinking beer & eating pizza…….. I wouldn’t be able to do it. That doesn’t mean I can’t be a good sign maker.

I’ve produced some pretty good work in the past few years. I really want to become a better sign maker and thats what really matters. Becoming a better drawer would help some, but it’s certainly not imperative. So if you can’t draw, don’t sweat it. Keep on doing what you’re doing.

Am I in the wrong business?

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: John Martin Robson ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: RonniesTintSigns ]

I am not joking as it is a fine piece of line work!

A Man in Camo with a Deer in the woods!)

Copyright will cost you $1000.00
The royalities will be 3% per copy...

I wonder how much for a custom drawing done to client specs?

So there you have it, any one who CAN draw, but isn't, is in the wrong business!

In case you can draw, but your client 's budget isn't always allowing for custom work, here's something free from my "Click Art" collection.

let me know if you want a vector file of this.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]

Stephan, would you mind posting a picture of that Bow Hunter line art so we can steal...er..umm..I mean see it and judge for ourselves it's "fineness" before screwing you...er..I mean... buying the rights to it? Heeheehee...just kidding my man. We're like Robin Hood...we only steal from the rich...which as a sign guy, you probably aren't.