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hi just thought ide ask how you stop the local sign company using your design you just gave your customer 2 hours before. which they asked to take home and show the wife...
posted
The best idea I've heard to prevent these situations is to have your sketch clearly state that it is your design, until the sign is made by your shop or the customer pays a (named) design fee.
Then have the customer sign a copy of the sketch that YOU keep when he leaves with a proof.
-------------------- Best Regards, Mark Smith EstiMate Sign Pricing Software It's Not Luck. It's EstiMate.™ http://www.EstiMateSoftware.com 1-888-304-3300
Posts: 724 | From: Asheville, NC, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here in the states we have a law firm for just such situations "Smith & Wesson, P.A." Just kidding the above are all good suggestions. Sometimes just the threat of a lawsuit (even with no legal grounds) is sufficient.
-------------------- Dennis Goddard
Gibsonton Fl Posts: 1050 | From: Tampa Fl USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
And maybe give them both a call and suggest reading "Steven Covey's 7 Habbits of Highly Sucessful Business's"...on ethics & morals because they are both clearly lacking.. .. HALF the time I remember using a Corel transparent "Property of RM Signs" across the whole design....it's a shame people are like that.
-------------------- Robin McIlvaine RM Signs & Vehicle Graphics Punxsutawney, Pa Posts: 72 | From: Punxsutawney,Pa USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Happened to me too. You know that really cool, knowing, dignified looking picture on Si's post? It's not Si.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Real simple, unless the design is paid for it doen't leave my hands, plain and simple. The wife can come look at it, I might even meet them but let somebody walk away with an unpaid for design, no way!!!! Been there done that, doesn't feel good at all, besides I'm gettin too old to be kickin myself in the ass
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
i'm not going to get into the ethics of the other shop or of what you should do AFTER you feel your design was ripped off. i'm just going to address your question of prevention.
i may not be a great designer, and i'm certainly not a great sign maker (yet) but i do know a bit about design laws. here goes.
(pause while i put on my flame-retardent suit)
i'll start with two examples that point out the problems with owning and stealing things:
1. i type out "EXIT" in 3" Helvetica and give the "sketch" to them to approve. some other shop makes the sign. i'll never be able to prove that this was an original design. any shop could have come up with that. it might be just coincidence that we both chose Helvetica.
2. Man comes in, wants to buy a stereo set. i hand my stereo to him, he looks at it, and says "i want to get my wife's approval". Out he walks, no deposit...i go complain that he "stole" my stereo... he didn't steal it... i GAVE it to him.
So, here are four ways to prevent people from stealing your designs:
1. a signed contract BEFORE you release the sketch. contract says if they don't hire you to do the sign they owe you $___ for the sketch.
2. they give you a "sketch deposit" before you do the sketch.
3. they pay you for just the sketch before you let them leave the office. if they hire you to do the sign as well, the deposit counts towards the entire job.
4. you pay a few tthousand dollars to TRADEMARK (not copyright) the sketch, and the let them take it. if they hire you to do the sign, you sell them the trademark. (no, this isn't a serious option, but it is possible, and it points out the difference between trademark and copyright).
---
i picked up the SignCraft "Business Forms Pack" and the quotation form has a "sketch deposit" on the form. the sketch deposit pays for the time to do the sketch, and then for the up-front money to begin the sign, once the sketch is approved. it makes sense to me.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Upload design to internet. Give customer a password redirect page to view design and all along the way let them know that you have dated/verifiable proof that you designed it by putting it on the server. I know it wont work in all situations. Just another way.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You know, it's always "Wanna let the wife see it" with this type of customer. Odds are, he didn't even plan on letting the wife see it. Notify the signshop that the design is your property and if they use it they too will be included in the lawsuit. Notify the guy that took the design home to the "wife" and tell him to return the sketch that day, and if he is stupid enough to use it, you will take his rump to court, or make him pay you a design fee. I had this happen a couple years ago. Same mo. Two days later its on his truck, although crappily done, and I about wrecked when I drove by. Called him on the phone, told him it was my design, he can't use it, and I want a design fee of 100 bucks or we go to court. He says fine, take me to court. I had a lawyer friend do him up a threatening letter about fees and court expenses and all that stuff, and lo and behold, in comes the check. And, this guys name goes on the DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH list I have in my filing cabinet. Not many on there, but they would have a better chance of winning the lottery than to get me to do work for them again.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
There are many good answers in the above posts.
Try this fairly simple one. It is a guaranteed moneymaker. Train yourself to set your company policies and stick with them.
Educate the customer that the design process is what he is paying for and the finished sign is secondary. You can use an architect or a graphic designer (which is what you are) as an example. If they balk, let them walk.
Then show examples of your work, listen closely to what they say, take notes on a form that reads Request for Design / Proposal, have them sign it and give you a check for an estimated 50% of the finished sign. What I have just described is a free consultation.
Trust me it works. I know that many of the Letterheads you know and we all look up to are already doing it. Also, how often do you question a store’s or service provider’s policies before starting to do business with them?
A form is easy to make. Just imagine every question you would like to know the answer to in order to best solve their needs, write out a list of these with check boxes, put your terms on it, include a place to date and sign and put the check # and amount.
-------------------- Chip & Marilyn Carter 414 S. St. Pierre St. Broussard, LA 70518
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Yep this seems to have happened to all signmakers at least once. You get the good ole honest looking customer who wants to take your design home to show the wife. Yep yep yep......I always put on the bottom of the design my company name address and phone. And of course the words 'property of'......plus the watermark "SAMPLE DO NOT COPY" running thru the design in light grey. It at least gives them the idea that you will not react lightly to them stealing it. I like Chips idea of getting 50% down right then and there. Fortunately I am getting much better at doing this.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I actually believe that ScooterX reply was more of how it actually happened. No one stole your design, you gave it to them!
In order for this never to happen again, you must protect yourself. You must deal with the owner of the perspective business and have them sign a waiver or contract of some kind before handing then anything that can be done somewhere else. The moment you gave them the design, you gave them the right to do what they please with it. I find that if you are like most real designers you can design a waiver or contract of some kind pertaining strictly to your designs or work which in turn can protect you if problems arise.
Payment for any design that leaves your shop is a must, no matter who you are dealing with. Many jump into designing a layout just beause they want to give the other person the opportunity of seeing their work and BAM, its gone to another shop to get accompolished because the price may be cheaper. Getting paid for the work you do is as easy as completing the project, protect yourself from A to Z and don't do anything in the way of designing until the money is on the table, so to speak. Note: No one will steal your design if you are paid for it, payment is what we are all in business for. So whether you accompolish the complete project or just the layout, at least you get paid for it.
Learn from your mistakes and get on with what you are here for.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Sam, You allowed the person to take the design to "show to the wife" in good faith. Were they dishonest? Yep. You trusted them to do just what they said: show it to the wife. Some folks would be honorable but, an awful lot of people won't. I like Chip's idea.
I had to learn the hard way too.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com
Posts: 7405 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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I was once screwed by a so-called customer friend. Now all contracts are handled by my business partners Rocko and Vinny. I hate lwayers and don't care to deal with them. Sooner or later I get even. An old favorite is find the scumbags home address. Send the husband a dozen roses and put any womens name on the card. His wife will take care of the rest. He may be able to worm his way out of it the first time so just in case, send him another dozen in a month. You may also call his house from a payphone during the day when no one is home and leave a mesage from a women. If you are a guy you will have to have a female friend make the call. The divorce will cost him a whole lot more than that sign would have. I have also put someone on over 200 mailing lists before. This one can be a lot of fun. You will be amazed at what you can send someone for free.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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