I have been reading Dan's aricle on outsourcing work...I wonder in the "real world" how this affects us smaller shops.

I understand and agree to a point with what he is saying. It would be great to turn away or outsource low paying jobs, or just add a slice on top.

Today we have world downturns in economy, we here all the time about how people are cutting back.

I do most things "in house", I feel I have control of what I do and the quality, and don't let myself down. As a small but busy shop I feel my prices are middle of the road.

I sold a job recently for a watch and clock chainstore, it was screenprinted it was printed (outsourced) to a larger shop, the ad bureau had direct contact over all repro concerns, I just tok a $400 commission for puting them together....everything done and out in time....then came a mail reclaiming half of what was printed as the print was "bad" I was the one who invoiced and arranged it I am the one who had to sort it all out...it was a nightmare I won't repeat...it wasn't worth the commission.

If you make it yourself, you have control, you can always put a problem right, with limited loss.

I also enjoy siting quietly in the workshop painting, or going outside and sandblasting, or laying up a truckside with graphics, its the variety, and change that gives me the inspiration to try new and develop further, whether its design or workshop skills.

Dan is excellent at design and layout, and building websites, selling the corporate packet. I can understand his need to focus on those areas.

Howmany of us signfolk have the luxury offices or facilities to attract "good design money". I have a large workshop on an industrial estate, and wear jeans and check shirts. I think people buy from me because they trust my service and what i am about. If I moved into the town and dressed abit differently, and had a smarter surrounding I might attract a customer with more money, but I am not sure I would enjoy my work as much?

(Not insinuating you have luxury offices Dan, i don't know how you work).

Just thought we could have an interesting discussion here with how people function regarding what they do at home and what they "outsource".

I can also get a good fee for logo work, from certain customers if asked to produce specifically. I charged $650 last week plus taxes, and just sent them a colour separated eps file no layout for biz cards, letterheadsetc.

I make the effort for smaller plumbers, builders etc. and don't charge directly but put it in the job....I feel I have been paid in the long run as they are happy and have recommended me further.

Business cards for example, I have printed at Postcard Press. I dont have a digital press but full color biz cards are too cool a product to pass up, and it's even better that I dont have to use any of my own time to make them nor the materials required to do the job either. Making a $200 profit on 1,000 biz cards is a SNAP this way.

I dont have the capacity to do digital printing on vinyl but I offer the service through my site. If I ever get an order for it, I know who I can sub the work to and I know they do a great job at it.

I dont screenprint t-shirts nor decals, but I do offer the services and source those out as well. My sources for these products are awesome, the t-shirt guy often gets $800 for a t-shirt layout, ARTWORK ONLY!! - his layouts are *that* awesome!! Anyways, I plan on eventually screening my own vinyl but until I have enough money and room for my own equipment I'll use my sources.

Subbing out work is a great way to make money without having your own time or materials involved, you just worry about design.

Dont let one bad apple spoil the hole bunch, you can think of out-sourcing like you think of sign suppliers. If you've been in business for a while, you've ran across bad sign suppliers. I believe that the article has it's good points, as when other people give advice, in which we utilize the advice in which suits us most, only he expands into all of the possibilities.

Dont give up on out-sourcing, it has it's advantages, if I were to ask you to make a sign for me because I was too busy, you'ld probally make a fine sign for me, maybe a slight bit different than my standards, but noting that couldnt be worked out so as to continue in the future.

It works all the time for us with screening, electrical, and neon. I took awhile to find the best people to do these jobs, and yes there were rough experiences with other contractors, but over time it began to work very well. Now I know who I can work with, and my shops ability of providing full service stands strong.

I think the article was good brain food for thought for those who wish to grow but havent the resources to follow through.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say this affects us in the "real world". Maybe you mean "real world" of sign shops? I guess because I'm not really a sign shop in the sense that most of you here are.

Which is true. I'm not really a sign person. I'm more a graphic designer, who just knows a little about advertising and marketing - and uses different mediums to get results for my clients. Signage and vehicle advertising are one of those mediums similar to what most of the "real world" sign shops do. But I think I differ in the approach. I'm not really interested in only lettering trucks or occassionally making signs. Rather, I'm focused on the whole package of identity building. For some clients, they only need a sign or truck lettering, and it quickly becomes apparent that we are not a good match. First off, I'm generally too expensive for them. But I'm not going to charge less for my talent simply because it's not being utilized to its fullest potential. An architect gets paid the same whether he/she is designing an outhouse or a mansion.

For those looking to take their business to the next level, it works well. I can offer all the tools they'd ever need to promote themselves, be it printing, web, layout and design services, etc.

But I'm getting off your point.

What I'm saying is that I'm too busy to get bogged down in low paying jobs - and a result, outsourcing makes more sense for me. If I was slow, of course I'd try to do more myself.

Another point you make is getting away from making things or creating things that make you happy. That's a different issue. I love to letter trucks - always have - and probably always will. But although I still make good money doing it - I can make more designing web sites, or creating brochures. They are still creative endeavors - web sites are especially fun for me. So I still enjoy the work - but it's perhaps a different focus. If my hourly on web design is $100+ and my hourly on truck lettering is $75, its sometimes makes more economic sense to focus on that which yields greater dollars, and still of course makes you happy. At a $25 an hour difference, thats $1000 bucks a week or $52,000 a year.

But sometimes, I'm extremely happy making money for doing nearly nothing (like reselling something I haven't produced).

As far as attracting the higher paying clientele with fancy digs and clothes - I sit here now in my basement (which is where my office is) wearing sweats and fuzzy slippers. I'm fortunate that most clients feel comfortable working via email and fax, and an occassional meeting at their place. In which case, I'll put on a nice shirt, slacks and dress the part of a professional.

We have some of the highest costs of living here in NJ. Perhaps thats why most of our rates here seem to be viewed as high by people outside the area. When I do work for NYC clients, I charge NYC rates. Me working in my basement doesnt factor in to my pricing structure.

Regarding having control - I agree thats an issue to be careful about. We all want control to make sure our rep remains intact. But I was merely suggesting things that don't require the highest level of skill, like real estate signs or magnetics - are products which could easily be turned over.

I've seen your work Henry - and don't agree that your prices should be middle of the road. They should be higher than everyone elses. Unless everyone around you is somehow produces far superior work - which I doubt.

Good for you banging %650 for a logo design. I'm sure even at the price it was a bargain.

Quote: "I think what I meant to get across in the article is that most sign
people are talented enough to perhaps expand into other lines of
business that will offer them additional revenue sources. But some of
the things I mention are not going to be practical for a lot of folks."

You wrote a great article Dan, and I am glad you have joined in here, I just wanted to open up a friendly discussion here amongst us on the BB about, what we produce "in-house" and what is outsourced. I actually do outsource a few things too....all my Edge work for example.

The "real world" was as you suggest with reference to shops like myself, and others here at the BB.

I feel sometimes even with some of the best advice in books and magazines, and seminars, we follow other paths, that perhaps dont always yield the best results, or most profitable, I guess thats somewhere in the real world!

I hope others join in here....some creative types dont always have the best business brains....I hold my hand up here!