I'm trying to fine-tune my homemade spreadsheet, and this seems like I could set up an easy formula for this sort of thing. I know some of you use Estimate and other programs, so I was wondering if anyone could give me a little hint as to how outlines and/or shadows are usually handled?

Thanks everyone. And Pierre, it was a pleasure to see your face here again.

Yer already there doing the labor anyway and that little extra material isn't going to make that much of a difference.

If it's a reeeeeeaaaally small job like a 6" decal, yeah I could see charging double for it to make it worthwhile.. but if it's something like a 4x8, we're talking an extra what, $15-$20 worth of material and another 5 minutes to lay the shadow down?

OH OK, let's add the 10 seconds it takes to create a drop shadow or outline in the software, and don't forget the 35 seconds it takes to grab the roll of vinyl off the shelf and load the plotter. You certainly don't want to forget the 10 seconds required to hit the PRINT button. Add in the 10 minutes required to weed and apply the transfer tape, dont forget the $1 worth of transfer tape either. May as well toss in the 70 cents for the squeegee you used on the job too.

Imagine getting a 53' semi trailer job to do in vinyl, then the customer asks you for a second color after the original $5,000 bid. Now you tell him the second color is going to bring his total to $10,000 when that second color adds at most, $500 to the job cost.

This does not sound right to me at all.

Yes, it's double the materials but no it is NOT double the labor. You are already there doing the job so you do not have the same "ramp-up" time/cost to get into the job that you had on the first color.

Once you actually get into the job, the rest of it sails by pretty quick...
If there's another side to do on the job, it goes by quicker because you've already done the first side and now laying out the second side is faster.
If there's a second color, you've already got the first color layed out so registering the second color takes mere seconds.

I didn't think anyone was saying to double the sign price. I certainly would if I were doing RTA lettering that the customer is picking up.

I set my spreadsheet up to double the vinyl price and add 50% to labor cost.

I'll see how that works on a couple of "play" estimates.

It's exactly the same situation with outlines, shades, beveled letters or whatever. The more bells & whistles that your customer wants or specifies, the more value they're adding to the sign. If ever a customer wants a price reduction, ask them IMMEDIATELY what features that they're willing to forego. The quicker you can get them to realize that they're simply NOT going to get the SAME sign for less money, the faster they'll recognize that "haggling" is not going to result in them getting something for nothing.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]

Ken, I like the pizza explanation and I just stole it from you!

the pizza analogy has a basic flaw: signs aint pizzas.

the pizza biz, for the most part, is a commodity business. the more units you can sell, the better -- and one pizzaria is pretty much the same as another. the low/middle end of the pizza biz is really competitive. every week i get 3-10 coupons stuck on my truck, in the door, mailed and handed to me to offer me EXACTLY what somebody said there wasn't -- FREE TOPPINGS. "$2 off a large - $3 off an XLarge".

i haven't received any flyers offering me $50 off a 4x8 or $75 off a truck door.

if you run your sign biz like a pizza shop then you're gonna be chasin after every last penny. sure - offer free shadows (using inferior vinyl that's been on the shelf for 3 years). buy two truck doors and we'll throw in the tailgate for free!

if you're a storefront sign shop, similar to the franchise shops, then YES, you need to double the line price for that vinyl. storefront shops ARE in the commodity, low end of the biz. they've got minimum wage people sticking pepperoni, i mean helvetica, on things. if you're in that business, its ALL about volume sales, and then you should be considering the drop shadow as a volume product (it increases the amount you buy, so you could buy more at a lower price).

for the REST of us... price on value, not on cost. the $5000 trailer probably already has the drop shadow figured in (otherwise it was a $3985 plus tax job).

You've introduced THE factor that elevates this thread to a whole other level - Are we selling by the pound (commodity) or by value. Two pretty distinct camps.

The VALUE camp will hold that 'little things' like adding a shadow make only a small increase in the selling price, if any, because the job already is in a price bracket that would allow such elements. And that bracket includes a pretty wide margin for artistic embelishment. The "magic" factor.

The COMMODITY camp figures selling price by much more rigid formulas and must rely on the 'add on' approach to offer flexibility. That's just as valid as long as there is a solid profit margin built into the base prices.