posted October 13, 2001 01:06 AM
As many of you know I have been letterin' for many years, and there is a question that is on my mind here of late? Why do some artists use a palletting techinque and others not? I myself don't pallette and certainly don't recommend it to others, because; For one, why mix paint on a card unless using an incredibly small amount of paint? For two, why stroke on a pallette a number of times, mixing paint with thinner before making a stroke? It seems to me, and granted I am not a sign guru, that it is much more efficent to pre-mix color in a cup and shape the brush against the side of the container, allowing the signmaker to easiy make continious strokes with the paint rather than dip in paint, dip in thinner, stroke on a pallette and then perform the stroke. It has been my observation that ones who pallettes wastes time in the execution of lettering using the pallette technique by all the added steps used to perforn lettering by this method. Something else I have noticed by using the pallette method is that as you continue lettering this way is..... that as paint starts to dry on your pallette and.... as you stroke your brush across the pallette the brush hairs have a habit of sticking on semi-dried paint on the pallette as you stroke across it, causing hair from the brush to be yanked from the ferrel as it is pulled across these sticky areas. (does this make sense?) Abusing your brushes in this manner isn't credible to me, not to mention the waste of time compared to pre-mixing colors in a cup, ready to letter with, pre-thinned and using the technique of shaping your brush against the side of the cup.
So the question is?
To you people who pallette on a card before stroking, Why?
Why do you do this? Am I missing something?
I have to admit, another reason for raising this issue is my angst at the lack of questions pertaining to real brush lettering broached on this board. What has happened to the craft?
Just another artist, from Smiling Possum Holler, in downtown Reeds Spring, Missouri.
-------------------- Terry Teague James River Signs Reeds Spring, MO tlteague@tri-lakes.net
Posts: 434 | From: Reeds Spring | Registered: May 1999
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I use a pallette. I also thin my paint out in the cup and keep a small cup of reducer on my stand.
Why? Because i have been doing it this way since I was a wee lad and I can't stop. I can work either way but prefer to use a pallette except for wall work.
Just me sporting an opinion. Hope all is well!
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter
Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted October 13, 2001 01:35 AM
I kind of pallette! I use cat food cans (same as tuna fish cans)and put about an ounce of paint in them. I also have a squite bottle with thinner and "Edge" in it to thin it to brushing consistecy. Holding the can at a slight angle, the paint is at the edge and the bottom is my pallatte. It is canstantly wetted with the paint, so it doesn't dry and pull hairs. A back and forth swipe with a brush, picks up paint and pallettes the hairs, leaving you with a "wet" brush.
Werks fer me!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat
Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 13, 2001 05:34 AM
Hi Terry - I prefer to use a palette as I find I get a better chisel edge on the brush that way.Though I don't palette over the sticky paint but alongside it. Maybe I'm just too bulky or clumbsy, but I found out from one or two bad experiences that unless the paint is in a substantially weighted container I usually tip it over. I once had a container blow off the tower scaffold I was working on - you wouldn't believe how far an inch of paint in a small tin can fly when it hits the deck from ten feet up, It took me longer to clean it up than do the job (well nearly)
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Hodge ]
-------------------- Goldenmahl Dave Hodge's Traditional Signs. Preston, England. 01772 743352 Posts: 108 | From: Preston, Lancashire, England | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted October 13, 2001 05:39 AM
Timi said it. (although I pallette better than I letter!) BTW, wouldn't dragging the brush over the lip of a container do the same damage to it as palletting would?
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Bill Dirkes ]
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted October 13, 2001 06:32 AM
I pallette also. I love beating up my brushes. They just are not good until they lose about 22% of their hairs. Plus I like to get that nice chisel edge.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted October 13, 2001 06:35 AM
Good morning Rob! I don't for fear the paint will dry to quickly. I use driers. bronzeo
-------------------- "Don't change horses in midstream, unless you spot one with longer legs" bronzeo oti Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com jack@imagemakerart.com Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted October 13, 2001 08:46 AM
The reason I use a pallette is to "load" the brush with my already mixed paint and thinner. The CHISLE effect on the brush is accomplished from the "furrel" to the "edge" by way of palletting. It also allows me to FEEL the drag(paint consisitency)for smoother brush strokes. Palletting from left to right without going over already drying paint.Stops the promblem of hair loose from the brush. Although it seems to you that this process takes more TIME. So does boiling water! Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 13, 2001 09:46 AM
Another Palletter here, and aren't you doing the same thing on the edge of the cup? I don't know wich way is better only thats the way I always done it. I just assumed hair lose was inevitable for brushes and people! I just wanted to check in on this actual sign making related post! thanks for the much needed topic! also I don't use a card, I use a joint compound metal knife about 3 inches wide with a handle grip. I have 3 options when changing colors 1) wipe off the blade 2) flip it over 3) grap my other one If I leave the paint on too dry it build up, and I just scrap it off and re-use. That way I don't have a stack of cardboard hanging around, or paper cups for that matter. So, I guess all you guys are wasting time either cutting up cardboard or going to buy more cups.
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: captain ken ]
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted October 13, 2001 10:26 AM
I think P-King Duckie summed it up best by stating that it allows the user to feel the actual (drag) paint consistancy for smoother strokes. I personally use a book of 70 pound glossy and never palette over drying paint.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted October 13, 2001 11:00 AM
I 'm mostly a non palleteer like you Terry. Only on rare occasions do I pallette. On some striping jobs I'll pallette but mostly it's on the inside of the cup. I started doing this years ago when I was trying to teach myself. I was influenced by Ralph Gregory's books in which he questioned how palletting might be wasteful of time. I don't think anyone can argue that fact. For one thing you're locked into being within arms length of the pallatte. I've worked in a number of shops over the years, watched hundreds and hundreds of guys/gals letter there and at Letterhead meets. I've seen guys/gals pallette and not pallette and not be able to see any difference in quality of their work. I've never seen a person who pallettes that I would call fast though. This is a case of what works for the individual. I'm glad you brought this subject up. I felt left out in the mahlstick discussion Posts: 4327 | From: Millington, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 13, 2001 11:31 AM
Hello, my name is Don...(long pause) and I use a pallette. It all started when I was learning how to paint. I didn't know any better, and I thought it was cool to have all those smeared magazine pages laying around. Before I knew it, I was hooked. I have tried to stop, but I just can't seem to do it. I know it's a nasty habit, but it does help get rid of all those "Better Homes & Gardens" magazines that the wife leaves laying around.
BTW... I do premix my paint in a cup, and only use the pallette to shape the brush and feel the drag. I never pallette over drying paint. I work across a page, and when it is covered, I rip it out and start on another one. I don't like old phone books because the paper pulls the thinner out of the paint and the drag feels different. Glossy print magazines feel closer to the actual working surface.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.
Posts: 2316 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted October 13, 2001 11:49 AM
You are NEVER away from your pallett,IF..... you are using(blantant advertisment)a killer kart! I like the wide putty knife idea,although like Don use glossy magazine pages and rip out.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 13, 2001 02:44 PM
When I started (just after Moses was given the tablets of stone). We were taught to use an artists type palette resting on our forearm, with a clip-on dipper with the paint in. The mahl stick being in the fingers of the hand on this arm, the brush in the other hand. This was a good system you were always with your paint and palette. Where it did fall down was if you wore your watch on the palette arm, and someone asked you the time.
-------------------- Goldenmahl Dave Hodge's Traditional Signs. Preston, England. 01772 743352 Posts: 108 | From: Preston, Lancashire, England | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted October 13, 2001 05:51 PM
Gotta say, I'm with Terry on this question. The only time I pallete is when I am striping, and then only because I get too much of a brushload when using a shot-glass size cup of pre-mixed paint. For me, trying to use the edge of those small cups to shape a striper just doesn't get it.
The rest of the time-- as in lettering-- no palleting.
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted October 13, 2001 06:10 PM
To even think of picking up a lettering brush and not having ANYTHING as a palette, is nerveracking. Sorta like applying the brakes with your right foot, or driving with one eye shut.
I can't read all the posts right now, but Timi said what I think: I could not lay down that first stroke and start without the chiseled edge of a paletted brush. Its in the wrist, the consistency of the paint and the edge on your brush.
Maybe its just that I learned it that way, and its set in stone.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com
Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 13, 2001 06:49 PM
A dob a' this a smidge o' that, blend them together add another dob looks about right -How can you paint pictorials without a pallette? Solid colours are fine straight from the tin but for the fun stuff its gotta be a pallette !
Terry
-------------------- Terry Bull Sign & Custom Grays Essex England
posted October 13, 2001 07:05 PM
I use a pallette. I prefer using old deviled egg trays. I like the wide putty knife idea and glossy magazine pages (Always have some of those running around).
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posted October 13, 2001 07:55 PM
So, finally a post that brings me back to the good old days of learning signpainting, scrounging with the old timers with all the secrets and bare minimum tools! My name is uhhhh (pause), Deb from Creative Signs and I face a similar addiction. I was hoping to meet and greet others in my similar position. Mix, dip, pull, smash, and wiggle. That's what my quills do. Alas, I, too am addicted to palleting. Nonetheless when I have an old Penneys catalog and when I am in the shop I may use it for palleting.I've even found that a scrap piece of vinyl can be slick enough to use too.I do use a pallette after dipping into a pre-mixed can (tuna or cat food cans are great Joey.) I learned to use the side of the one shot if up on a ladder in the past because there are only so many things to carry up thirty feet with one hand, holding on to the ladder. Also, we didn't have any reason to keep anything on the platform where others were walking, standing or sitting. Sometimes it saved us a lot of stepping up and down when others were keeping a steady hand on a stroke.
[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted October 13, 2001 08:48 PM
Well, George, I pallet and sometimes use a Mahl stick and I've worked in 36 shops, which probably means working around about 100 sign painters (Painters!) and so far have only met two that matched my speed and only then on large lettering. One was Lenny - Ugh! I've met a lot that are better than me but not better AND faster (though I can't tell you whether or not they palletted, I wasn't watching). And I don't race - I just get busy. It always amazes me how much people dink around and putter and waste time, like they hate their job. No wonder a 4B can beat them.
Nobody has answered the question; "What has happened to our trade?" If we go into THAT old saw again it will definitely bring up a flaming folder and probably get the post removed. G%))@&#$*^ Whippersnappers, anyway!
Glad to see a sign painters' topic here.
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Languein ]
posted October 14, 2001 03:11 AM
OK, I'm a pallethead too, for most of the previously mentioned reasons. But I also like the advantage of adding just a smidgen more thinner on the fill-in strokes and long pulls. Also, I think most would agree, it's just the way we learned to do it. I never worked with any mahl stick painters, so I didn't pick up on that technique (I'm glad, those people are weird)
Posts: 4117 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted October 14, 2001 03:32 AM
Yep...I also use a pallette. I like to load my brush on a glossy magazine. I can feel the amount of pull....the consisitency of the paint. My paint is pre-mixed in a paper dixie cup.
Why?...I just learned it that way. By the way... I am very fast at lettering, so Mike ,maybe someday you and I will have a chance to stand side by side and lay some strokes down! I'd LOVE the challange! I also use just a cup. It depends on where I am lettering. I have in the past, cut a small square of slick cardboard, taped a cup to it, then held it with my mahl stick, and lettered. Eighter way...It works for me.
Good question.
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted October 14, 2001 11:05 AM
The last time someone asked me why I use a pallatte, I told them it's the only way that you can turn the paint over so that the glossy side is out, and the matt or dull side faces the substrate.
Geesh....I thought that EVERYONE knew that!
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ?
posted October 14, 2001 11:21 AM
********New Product Realse!!!******
Captain Ken's, classic,close to normal, turbo-charged, ultra-modern, 2 sided palette!!!!!!
With comfort grip handle and attachable mahlstick!
(photo coming soon!!!)
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
---------------------------------
"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted October 14, 2001 11:28 AM
Not only does the brush get charged evenly, shaped properly, and the reducer mixed, but it allows the differing amounts of drag for curves and fills and straight strokes.
Palleting on old phone books has several draws to me. I enjoy smearing color on the adds of some folks. I get them from the phone company that I no longer advertise in. Once the area palleted has a layer of paint on it it holds the solvents and no longer melts the print ink into the enamel.
I like to letter from the cup doing casual letter styles that call for more natural stroke endings.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
My name is Dave, and I use a pa.. uh, pal,, ..uh I use one.
Believe it or not, the guys at the big sign shop brought Playboy magazines to work and used them to pallet their brushes on.
As they worked, they painted bikini's , bras, dresses on the naked ladies. True story!
My Ideal situation is to pallet right inside the dixie cup, or glue down a dixie cup to a playing card. One of my buddies would use his spare time by getting a deck of playing cards, gluing dixie cups to them so they would be ready.
Thus, he could hold his paint, mal stick, and pallet with ease. And If Im not mistaken, he had a way to attach the dixie-cup/playing card to his malstick. I think he taped the edge of the card to the underside of the malstick. I use hand over method as first choice, then if I need a mal stick I grab a yard stick and improvise for the 1 minute I ever need to use it.
I'll have to call him and see how his system worked.
And as for time....who cares how fast? The customer is paying for it, why you got to save 5 minutes?
posted October 14, 2001 12:40 PM
i might try the taping/puttyknife pallatte. i've tried Si's catfoodcan thing, but i don't use that much paint, and i always seem to spend too much time cleaning the can out afterwards. (i've tried using less paint, but that doesn't seem to work... it dries out too fast or something).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted October 14, 2001 02:49 PM
i pallette.....but dont use no maul stick...aint never figured out why i need a stick. got my right hand thats attached.ive told this couple times here...i use the cheap poly plastic picnic plates with the 3 seperations. you got 2 small section and one is almost half of the plate. i put unthinned paint in one small section, put flow agent, reducer, thinner penetrol, xim, or what ever in the next to it small section. pickup some paint on the brush, pallette it in the large section, pick up some reducer with the brush and then go back and pallette it in the paint in the large section. this way i get the paint flow and the chisel effect of the brush that i feel comfortable with. the best thing about the plates....ive got the same plates ive had for 10 years....and still usein em. after you get a paint build up in the plates, and let it dry hard, you take a screwdriver and gouge the paint, it will all come off the plate in a sheet and then you have a new and clean pallette to work from. plus it lets your other hand free..to do thing like stratch, drink, push up your glasses or take em off when you need.....or use the free hand as a maul stick....but like most say if not palletting will make me paint as good as terry....hey...no more palletting.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 14, 2001 04:53 PM
LOL another "us and them post"...
Geeze Terry I was wondering how long it would be before we disagreed on something...over the years I have met far more (as answers to this post indicates)that pallet than not.
I suspect had you been taught to pallet you still would...on ocassion I find myself with out pallet materials (phone books,old shocard,creditcards,etc) and I use it right out of a can (like the big boys)One time I was lettering out of a can of pre thinned paint and as I "palleted" the brush against the side of the can I cut off all the outer hairs on the razor sharp edge (a favorite brush I might add)and that sent me back to palleting for a long time.
The only thing I never understood about us palleters is why someone wouldn't pre mix the paint...thinning it as you go makes for thick and thin strokes of paint and that never made sense to me.
When things get "gummy" I just take a minute ...clean the brush then proceed.
I hope this doesn't ruin our freindship but hey not everyone can be good at palleting and will have to fall back on being "canheads".
George Woodward...A gold leaf man in Denver that I was priveledged to apprenticed under used playing cards as pallets for over 35 years that I knew him and they tell me he used them 30 years before I knew him.(thats a lot of cards) He got them all from the local American Legion (the weekly throwaway decks)
It became a trademark of sorts...everyone knew him for it ...people even called the shop and asked for "the guy with the playing cards".
[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted October 15, 2001 08:08 AM
I pallete on the inside of a dixie cup, and use eyewash bottles to add a drop or so of reducer when needed. If I work with a big quill, like a twenty-something, I pallette on another surface as the cup isn't big enough. As to mahlsticks, depends on the job. When I have a pounce pattern, or working on glass or wet-on-wet and have to keep fingers off the surface, I use the stick.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted October 15, 2001 08:44 AM
Is there room for one more? No one mentioned the guy that has his pallet on the floor along with a cup of paint and a cup of thinner and constantly keeps dipping down to charge and pallet the brush. At the end of the day he wonders why his back aches. This old guy uses a small pallet about 4"x8" with a hole cut for the thumb. There is a spot on one end for the paint cup made from a 4" x6" file card folded to a 1"x2" box of pre mixed paint. on the other end is a empty gold leaf book taped to the pallet which works very well. This is then held in the same hand that holds the mahl stick. With this set up you can walk around a truck lettering job in no time and do shadowing and outlining without getting your other hand in the wet paint. Works for me for many years.
Thanks again for a good signpainterspost
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted October 15, 2001 09:51 AM
Bill, you're describing my set up! I have the thumb hole cut from a pallate shaped from an old aluminum sign blank, and the part where the paint goes is covered with plexi and there is a square cup soldered on which holds the folded index card.
Many gold men that I've known folded the index card cups and held one tab and used the other for the pallette.
There were the guys that took the tin snips that every shop had for cutting sho card, and they'd cut from the rim 2/3 down toward the botton and then rotate the can an inch and a half or so and repete the cut. Then they'd fold down the tab they created as a pallete and cut the can down so the top of it was where the pallete started.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
posted October 15, 2001 07:19 PM
I was taught to pallete and still do sometimes...for the reasons listed above, tighter steering on tiny stuff mostly. I don't like to slow dance with corners.
I use a few scraps of styrene, that are big enough to fit on my rolling cart. No missing Better Homes and Gardens, and I can just switch palletes if I run outta room on it. It also, catches any paint that might have smeared all over my table top. Most of the stuff I do has some artwork on it, and I don't always do a plain old spot color gig, so I like the larger pallete for mixing colors on as I go.
If I'm dancin with ladders that day, I like to pallete my brush inside the can, and I slide the excess paint off the brush at an angle that does not cut off the hairs.
With fitches (for wall jobs) I just avoid dipping the brush all the way to the ferrul (sp?) and keep on keepin on till the sun sets or the kerosene heater goes out, hehehe!...which ever comes first!
I know I'm gonna have a hard time from somebody for being attached to my rolling table, but i like to use one of those clip on lights and point it to what I'm painting so I can see it much better and keep the color mixing in check. It's really great for dancin around a vehicle. For vans, I've clipped it to an 8 foot ladder that I move when I start a new side...but that's mostly to keep the bugs outta my hair whilst in a fleet yard with little lighting available. I have done work at night without it and the next day had to wonder what I was thinking as the color might have been off from how I remembered it, once the sun hits it...hehehe!
posted October 15, 2001 08:32 PM
Mark! Hahaha! That is my favorite set up when i paint at other shops. Especially the roller hanger! Just don't sit on it by mistake...burn yer butt fer shore!
I just wanted to check in on this actual sign making related post! thanks for the much needed topic! also I don't use a card, I use a joint compound metal knife about 3 inches wide with a handle grip. I have 3 options when changing colors
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