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Just curious, not doing any kind of survey and don't want to start another 'them vs us' bunch of BS. But, I see at times some of us make a statement of our hourly shop rates and at times some of them seem really low. My wife and I operate our small business and for over thirty years we've struggled to stay competitive and still make a decent living, some years better than others, you know the 'feast or famine' routine of a small shop. Every dollar that we earn, we earn. All insurance and retirement we have to pay for ourselves, this keeps us continuously thinking about how to raise prices and still keep a steady flow of orders. For those that have a significant other that has a public job with a benefit package or for those that have retired from public work with a retirement income doesn't have to worry as much about shop rates, if you can pick up an extra $300 $400 dollars a week to go with your established income then you may feel you are making really good money in your sign business. If everyone had to run their business like their life depended on it I think we would see a whole different attitude here on this BB. Competition is a good restraint for all types of businesses and keeps excessive inflation in check. 'Competition' by anyone that can afford to do work at way below standard rates is not only screwing the industry that they are trying to be a part of but are screwing themselves by leaving a lot of money on the negotiation table. Our client base is in a rural area, the town we live and work in is only inhabited by 250 other country folks and the whole county though large is only home to 28,000 yet our shop rate is $50 per hour and we have enough work logged in for the rest of this year and well into the first month or two of 2001. As you might have guessed, our rates will go up in January on all new orders, I'm not going to leave any money on the table if I can help it. We hear some say 'I can't get those kind of prices in my area', NO, you can't if you don't ask for them.
------------------ Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where gonna find the time to do it over?
Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Im a home based biz in a medium size midwestern USA city. It never takes more than 15 minutes to travel from one end of the city to the other to see a customer. Yet, there are around 25 sign shops in the town or surrounding area. Yes, this is my only means of support.
We also keep our pices up there, I base mine on $60.00 per hour. I can get the full amount working for the steady customers, but not with new customers looking for the best deal. Also we have the fastest plotter available to mankind. ( I can cut all the copy for semi truck doors in 1 color in just under 2 minutes) Point is $60.00 an hour might sound high, but since I can get the work done much faster, my price is still about the same as the shop charging $45.00 per hour with a slow cutter. ( I think )
One shop in our area is doing banners for $2.00 a square ft. Priceing by square foot is o.k if the banner has two words on it. If the banner has 300 words on it you are really screwed. We try to determine the amount of work each job requires and price accordingly.
When the work orders run out, and I have to go fishin' for work, I have to low ball to keep busy. Be thankful you don't swim in that kind of competition.
------------------ Go Get 'Em..... :) AKA Raptorman on #Letterheads mIRC Chat Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Proud 2-yr. $upporter of this Web Site (May 1999-May 2001)
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ditto!!!! My wife and I share the same problems. Our sign business is our only income. I know alot of other sign people and other businesses whose spouses have good jobs with benefits. This defenitly makes a difference during slow periods. But I like having my wife work with me, we are a good team , she is my right arm and she puts up with my crap. So we will just keep pluging away.
------------------ Dave & Diann Kilgore Signs by Dave New Cumberland, Pa. djkdlk@compuserve
"Over 25 years signcrafting experience and still learning"
Posts: 92 | From: Wellsville, Pa USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Larry speaks volumes here. I doubt there is any one in a more remote location than Elliot Design. I visited Larry a few years back, got a little lost, even though I'm pretty familiar with that neck of the woods, grabbed my map only to find out the town he lives in is so small it wasn't on the map To see what this man has accomplished in this location is beyond amazing.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Hi...My wife, myself and our son depend on our shop as our only means of income...we've struggled to get prices in our area to come up and have been somewhat successful but still have some work to do...Hey Dave Kilgore..we're neighbors...I'm about an hour north of you...I know we've bid on the same jobs in the past in the Liverpool area...(you got the work) anyway it was just about six years ago that I was "downsized" from a corporation so I took my IRA and my Harley and cashed them in and opened a sign shop and haven't regretted it...I price by the job...I've lost jobs because I'm firm on my pricing...but I'd rather go fishin or huntin then work on nonprofitable projects just to keep busy...actually though I don't get to do much fishin' or huntin' we keep pretty busy...
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We depend totally on our shop's income. My wife helps out about one afternoon a week or when we have rush jobs to get out. She has her hands full teaching our three children at home so we can't work together as much as we would like. We work well together though and it's a pleasure. The kids help out sometimes too. My wife hasn't worked at a job in 14 years.
------------------ Wayne Webb Webb Sign Studio,Inc. creators of "woodesigns" "autograph your work with excellence" webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com
Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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When I started out at age 21...I didn't need that much money. I did have a shop and had a house....and yes, signs were my only source of income. Then I got married. My sign business continued. But things were easier when you have 2 incomes. Now I am divorced with two teenagers that live with me full time. (and I wouldn't want it any other way) I have moved the shop back home...to be home for my kids. Signs are still my only source of income. I do however receive child support. But as any parent knows....that pays for food, heat, clothes, and doesn't allow for any fancy extras. I really don't know 'how' to do anything other than signs! And I think once you work for yourself.....it is very hard to go back to working for someone else.
------------------ "surf" or "MoJo54" on mirc Cheryl J Nordby Signs by Cheryl (206) 300-0153 Seattle WA.....!
Make your own glitter. Then follow your own shine. Linda Knight
posted
my wife has..."a job"....and if it werent for that...i would be down the welfare office now....its been that bad....i got a couple small jobs right now, and will keep the wolf away...and iam commited to the mobile shop..and am getting it ready to go to work....need to get the lettering on it and the generator working...but i gota make a buck too.....i agree about the people should price like they want to make money..but iam surounded by retired military($800-1500 a month income) and they do signs here for "cost"..for something to occupie they're time...this is what killed the shop, no matter what price i quoted someone they would ....search till they found someone cheaper.....the established shops seem to be doin ok...they have a regular clientel my income taxes for for 98 was $900.00 in the hole, and for 99 i had a profit of $3750.00 after expenses...so i know the feelin guys....and i been doin this most of my life and full time since 86....keep hopin it will get better....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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My wife and I do this full time. We have to pay all benefits and insurance from the business. I have been painting full time for 22 years as the sole support with some part time waitressing from my wife. In the past it has been tough, but now we are doing well. You will never be easy on prices when you know what you need to crack that nut every month. My shop rate is $70.00 an hour. Remember you aren't going to be working every hour. Same as truck lettering and such, charge high because you are never going to make it up on volume. The small sign business is a tough way to go, but can be rewarding in family life and quality of life.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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70% signs, 25% recording studio, 5% firearms sales. Family operation all the way. Son and daughter shoot 20 guage competetive skeet. No money there, though. Just fun.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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My wife has a full time job. The pay is not great, but it was a long time before I got enough work to equal her weekly income, sometimes I still can't. I hope that I'm not hurting anyone with cut rate prices, but I know that I am somewhat slow at what I do and will get faster with experience so I hesitate to price by the hour. I charge 5 bucks a square foot give or take a little for the particulars of the job. (mostly window splashes and murals) I don't know very many people who charge 50 bucks an hour and get to bill out 8 hours a day consistently. Most of us finish the day with a couple hundred bucks in our pocket no matter how we got there.
posted
we too depend soley on the biz income,we work from our home, and like wayne, my wife home schools our 2 kids but she is a great help when i need it. some times it gets tuff. the biggest change for me is when i got my own vinyl cutting equipment, that opened some doors for stuff that was difficult to do when you had to get vinyl elsewhere and in my area the "CRAPPERS" were doing there best to convince people that "THEIR VINYL" was the way to go. i do plow snow in the winter to help with the slow times although the last two winters have been anything but slow. i think that some of the people that don't have to depend soley on their biz to live on don't know what it's like to truly be in the signmaking biz...but i sure don't think i would want my setup any different.
lotsa luck to all the sole incomers out there!!!!!!!!
------------------ Jeff's Lettering Jeff & Dara Spradling Belvidere, Il.
"No you are not my only customer...do you really think I live on $150 a year"
Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Dave.. You've touched a subject very important to me which is not appropriate for me, as a merchant to post. Would you mind exploring your thoughts? No pitch, I promise. Howard Keiper, Graphtec 707 746 7172 or tell me how to contact you?
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Here's how I figured the cost of a 4x10 that I am working on right now. I suspect my selling price is a little on the low side, compared to the national average, but I don't know. I'd appreciate some comments on this. The sign has medium copy and a simple logo.
Some may wish to compare their overhead with mine. I'm curious how this compares with overhead elsewhere. Incidentally, when computing overhead, I use the full amount of my rent, phone bill, utilities, etc., though I work out of home.
1069.68....overhead & salary 25.......divided by productive hours 42.79....break-even per hour ........
Using a 50. per hour rate in the formula would make my 4x10 sell for 472.50. That's not unreasonable, though a little high for my area...maybe. But maybe not. I don't make much in the wintertime and we have relied on my wife's income to bridge the slow times, and provide insurance.
It doesn't matter now, anyway. We decided over a year ago to leave rural Arkansas and chose Kansas because it's in the middle--family is located in Illinois, Arkansas, Colorado & Utah. The Kansas City area looks promising, though I am in rent shock.
As my wife's present occupation is in high demand, we were able to choose which area to move to. Her income is also financing the move. I simply wouldn't have had the cash to do it. It has been a tremendous undertaking, and I swear that I will not move again except into a nursing home. Her income would also have underwritten a new start-up for my business, except for one thing. The big sign company in town offered me a job and I took it. I will now be Joe Employee after 25 years of calling the shots. I start in a week or so. Will I survive? I don't know, but stay tuned for another exciting episode...
posted
Excellent post Larry. I have worked in this industry for the past 23 years with my wife alongside me all the way. We too have noticed that when bidding alongside some competitors it is difficult because their spouse has a "normal?" job so they can cut back on the price a bit. Although we have our ups and downs I won't compromise on price because as some say you may as well go broke playing golf than working. For the people who worry about not getting good prices "In my area" there is a good article by Mike Jackson on page 42 in May/June Signcraft.
------------------ Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. drane@babe.net.au Downunder "Those who have suceeded at anything and not mentioned luck are kidding themselves" - Larry King;)
Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave Draper.. Not wierd at all...I (and Graphtec) am interested in your take on what you think it takes to be competitive...how you price what you do. What others in your neighborhood do..how they compete with you..stuff like that. I don't want to start a range war, so I think it wise to keep my own opinions between us. But I'll give you this much...we go to a lot of trouble to provide capabilities in our equipment to ensure absolute competitivness. Is it worth it?? hk
------------------ Howard Keiper Sales Mgr., Graphtec Benicia, Ca. keip@pacbell.net
Posts: 409 | From: Benicia, Ca., USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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I run the sign business and Shirley has a full time job with a fairly good paycheck and a VERY good benefits package. I have tried to never "low ball" prices on jobs because, first of all, I know all of the local sign guys personally and, secondly, from past business experiences I know how difficult it is to raise your prices if you start out low.
It has taken a few years but I am now at the point where my self employed taxable earnings exceed Shirley's taxable wages (but of course self-employment yields a lot lower taxable income because of legitimate expenses, so I pay less in taxes)
Having a second income in the family is DEFINITLY an asset, but shouldn't have an infuence on pricing...ideally!
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
To be competitive used to mean: Price! Service! Quality! pick any two
Now Competitive means: Price! Service! Quality! You can have all three!
Seriously, If my competion is going to cut throat price, then I need a faster way to make a quality sign and meet a customer's deadline, even if that deadline is the same day!
Sorry, I didn't buy a graphtec plotter. I bought a Gerber Odyssey. I have Gerber's Omega software, Gerber's Edge, a Signmaker 4B and I can dance cirles around the quicky sticky market.
Howard, I hate the quicky sticky market! I also have 5 kids to feed, so I'm stuck in the sticky!
This December in Sign Business Illustrated you will see an article by me on my part in a Gothic Cathedral style Church renovation. I hope this will be a doorway to the big time.
You will also see another post on this board of my passion for extremely creative hand carved signs.
To be cometitive....you must to stive to be the best sign maker you possible can, and widen out into every possible aspect your computer and plotter can take you! That means a wide variety of markets: automotive stripes, glass etching, truck lettering, real estate signs, yard signs, monument signs, plastic lettering, banners, and yada yada yada yada yada yada yada.
And what really hurts, Howard, is when suppliers sell plotters to our customers and clients. I know, you have to make a living too, but selling plotters to the very ones we make a living off of is underhanded. Suppliers are often sign shops themselves, offering computer router signs and large format digital prints.
Tell me how to stay competitive with that factor!
Your turn!
------------------ Go Get 'Em..... :) AKA Raptorman on #Letterheads mIRC Chat Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Proud 2-yr. $upporter of this Web Site (May 1999-May 2001)
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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We are a two income family, however I've NEVER been known for cheap prices. Exactly the opposite. I remember when I was homebased, some customers questioned my prices because 'I worked from home.' I put a certain worth on my work because I put my all into it, and they learn to accept it or move on.
Having two incomes allows me to definately breathe easier. My shop started out to be a suppliment to our total income, to pay for the little extras. Today, we rarely have to watch our pennies, something that one can get too use to very fast! I've been blessed by a regular return clientelle and that only comes with years in the same location. I feel for those moving to a new area and starting fresh.
At one point my husband played with the idea of working with me. What I told him was, I'd feel stress to keep us totally afloat, which could effect the business in a different way. I want the freedom to turn down nonprofitable jobs, etc.
I use to be located in a storefront with my own bay. Very nice area, however very expensive. I decided then that I was overpaying, which kept my employee part time.
I now have a small storefront with very low overhead, access to 15,000 sq ft of heated bay space for free, which allows me to employ a full timer so I can raise my still very young son at home.
The one rule I feel is of utmost importance in running a healthy biz is, stay true to your customers, gain their loyality and they'll come back.
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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We too are a husband and wife team. This is our ONLY income. We survive very well. We are in a small town (19,000) Our county is 65,000. Fairly small county as counties go, and plenty of compitition. But...once you become established, your income stays somewhat consistant. Our shop rate is $60. an hour. We base our prices individually, sometimes it is whatever the customer can afford...and some can AFFORD a lot, but they also get a lot for thier money.
After 14 years....I can't think of anything I would rather be doing....this ain't like work, ya know!!!
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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Lots of good replies, thanks a bunch everyone. It appears there are a lot of us in the same proverbial boat. Working and living 24 hours a day with your better half can be a pain at times but a great pleasure most of the time, you just have to make it a point to keep the problems of home separate from the problems at work. What got me to thinking of this matter was that in our area there are few sign shops, in a 50 mile radius there are approximately 15 full-time shops. Of the 5 (more local) shops, 4 of these are supporting their families soley from their business with only one that has a spouse in the public work force. We are all in a close race when it comes to bidding on certain type jobs as we are all aware of our materials, labor and operating costs. A few part-timers that only work when they want because of other incomes usually bid as low as half of what the established shops would. This gives the customer a false sense of sign value and creates a problem when dealing with those that have had work done by the part-time shop. When you ask them why they don't go back to the part-timer, their reply is 'I can't seem to find him' or 'He's too busy', then they proceed to try and beat you up over the price. I try not to offend any of these 'customers' but politely let them know if they want my services they WILL pay my price. I like the rural lifestyle and wouldn't trade it for a few extra dollars at the end of the year if it meant having to live in a metro area, I spent a few years in Nashville and wouldn't move back if they gave me the whole city. But, to each their own, I'm just a simple country boy.
------------------ Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where gonna find the time to do it over?
Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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15 years and counting on many more! I started out at $10 hr. when I was 24 & was ecstatic to be "self-employed" but it was a supplement. Then my husband lost his job and his work was on and off for the next 10 or so years. My work often carried us but we always need it so bad I was afraid to go over $20 an hr. in this remote area. Then one of "them" move to town and I was so jealous that he could do a set of doors in 1 hr.(with little or no design time) & get the same price as my full color design that took at least a day. My other competition just did signs in the evening after his regular job, so that kept the price down too.I did purchace a Roland cam eventually. We never had any insurance as a family. Now I've been single 3 years with no child support & 1 teenager(his work is still on and off & we share custody) and I finally raised my rate to $40- $50. Only because the chamber manager...who always used my services, begged me to teach her friend to run Corel Paint. He was an engineer with an MBA, who purchased a lazer engraver & volumes of clipart to start a business knowing the mining industry was going in our area. Bottom line he was one of "them" in my book. The first time at my shop he ask to see my "volumes of clipart" & I smugly showed him my brushes!(yes I have Classic Sign Ornaments, Vol 1-3).Anyway he started his business at $40 an hr. using Brads formula and is now at a firm $60. We became partners and I can do the exterior signs & we also do the interior, directory, donor walls etc. I needed someone to tell me....Where else can anyone get the design, quality and service you have consistently offered... before I could raise my prices. Now I'm busier than ever and if the phone doesn't ring I peacefully faux finish furniture! Or do clearance sales but I don't worry. I get mostly all the higer ended stuff and have plenty of regulars after all these years. Of course I'm going to marry this fellow. We just bought a house together but I do wonder about all those husband and wife teams where everyday of their lives.....spelling counts!
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Well, I depend fully on my business, my wife Barb works with me and has since 1972 when she left her job with a title company. Also My son and his household and my nephew and his wife and my niece depend on my company as their sole income, though my nephew recently married and now has his wife's income too. Insurance has been our most difficult problem for as many years as we have had medicare. I now pay 3000.00 a month for insurance for the 5 of us. I keep my shop rate at 40 dollars per man hour. but I also charge markup on the products we manufacture, the 40 dollar rate is for actual on site labor like for installations etc. My employees (myself included) have a salary, insurance and soon will have other benefits like 401k. We are all family and treat each other that way. I have no regrets. My Company has been in existence since 1951, My Wife & I have been sole Stockholders since my Dad passed away in 1990.(I owned 51% of the stock since 1974 when we incorporated. It used to be hard to even make payroll for everyone (I was always the last to take pay) but it has been pretty good for the last ten years. I credit that to our ethics and quality. I have never treated vinyl like Quicky Sticky stuff. The first year I used it I used it for a mask, till I found it was better than the paint I was using. I went from a totally paint and screen print shop to a vinyl, screen print, foam letter mfg and edge printer in 16 years after I bought my first signmaker 4b. I think those who think the vinyl users are quicky sticky cheap job people better look around. I would venture to say that I do absolutely no work without first putting it on a computer somewhere, and that most sign people are in the same boat.And I would also say that I love it! I am faster, better, and cheaper, though still making a comfortable living, than I ever was without them. Bill
------------------ Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud second year Supporter of the Letterheads Website MailTo:twobeesusa@netscape.net
[This message has been edited by Bill Biggs (edited October 05, 2000).]
Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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