posted
In a couple of recent posts there has been references to "bidding " on jobs. I like to think of there being two scenarios involved.
In "quoting" on a job I am providing the same information I like to have when I am making a purchase. "How much is this going to cost?" I think it is a normal part of the sales process and trying to charge a customer for a "quote" is not the way to do business. I know that if i went to buy a car, or whatever, and the sales person told me it would cost me $20 to find out the price I definitely wouldn't be buying ANYTHING from him/her.
Now "bidding" on a job is a different story. When you are bidding, the artwork/layout/materials are usually specified and everyone will be bidding on the same thing. (no apples and oranges thing going on) If I know I am in a bidding war I am not afraid to ask what criteria will decide the winning bid and it is usually price. If I am bidding a $2000 job or a $50,000 job, I would be nuts to think that I should ask for a "fee" for submitting a bid, even if it is going to take me 4 to 8 hrs to prepare the bid (The possibility of losing the bid, because of percieved "arrogance" on my part, would be too high.) If I am bidding on a small job, say around $100 to $200, I just give an "off the cuff" ballpark and I don't lose any sleep over whether or not I am going to win the bid, because someone/someplace that is asking for bids on something that small is probably going to be a pain in the butt to deal with anyway. In that case I don't ask for a fee either because it only took 2 minutes to fax or e-mail or verbally give the bid.
So the bottom line is..I don't charge for either "quotes" or "big bids" or "small bids", for varous reasons.
What do you guys do?
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
posted
Dave...there is a big difference in getting a price on a car ( there is a sticker on the window) or a pair of shoes...and quoting a sign! Luckily, most of my customers are repeat or refferal...and they want a price (quote). If it is some purchasing agent, who is goning to get a number of bids (usually a large number of them *)...it is a "no win" situation because he/she is going to go for the lowest price! In that case, if he/she has to have a bid...I am going to charge for it!!!!
* Was at a friend's shop when he got a call from a purchasing agent needing decals. Wayde gave him a price, and the idiot at the other end said "You guys are all a bunch of crooks with your high prices!" Wayde then asked how many bids he had so far "22" was his answer...Wayde then shouted "You stupid $#%$^%^$#@$... don't EVER #%%$#@ call me again waisting my ^%%#$ time!... and slammed down the phone!
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't charge up front for quotes, either, though I would if I could get away with it. Heck, if I could get away with it, I'd charge for the time I spend eating corn flakes on the day of the job. Besides, I sometimes just pull a price out of the price guide anyway.
But when I sit down to figure up a more substantial job, I often use a sheet that has preprinted line items for labor and materials. At the beginning of the labor list is this: Survey time: Selling time: Quote time: Order time: Sometimes the total for these four is very little. On rare occasions it has ballooned to as much as 8 or 9 hours.
When I look at my watch the minute I start talking to a customer, or when I get in the truck to go look at a job, I am sometimes surprised at how quickly the time can add up. This is especially the case if you pull out a portfolio, which is why I don't normally carry it with me as a sales tool. It can be a time hog. Those of you who have a showroom, where you can let a customer sit down and browse through pictures while you go back to work, have an advantage over me.
At any rate, my quotes always include a charge for 'quote time,' even though I don't get it up front.
posted
Like Brad, on my workorder I also have an area that reads 'quote time.' I attempt to add that figure into the final price, however sometimes it doesn't fly.
As a general rule, I don't charge for quote time.
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
well...in the auto repair business..when you guys have your cars worked on and get a .R.O. copy..read it....on there somewhere is shop misc. or shop materials....they charge you for, towels, soap, penatrating oil, carb cleaner ect...stuff they use on the job.....so i never tell anyone iam charging them for the quote time, bid prep or such..i add it into the job..in my head..so that i get something for my time ....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I wouldn't consider charging for either, for fear of being laughed at. I'm sure that I would do if someone asked me. Two types of business that I really feel sorry for on getting used a lot are construction companies and autobody shops, especially the later, because many are just after the insurance check, and will fix the damage themselves. Most businesses though have this packed into their business overhead. I feel that estimating is fairly easy in the sign business except for a few instances of labor time, when a lot of variables are to be considered (dry times, recoats, ridges for paint and vinyl, vectorizing images, exact matching another sign shops work, all which should take carefull consideration). As long as jobs variable can be predicted, bidding should not be to big of a deal or time consuming...... Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com bronzeo@prodigy.net http://www.imagemakerart.com
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I never think of charging an up front fee for someone wanting a price on a simple project that I can quote in a few minutes.
There are the other projects that involve tractor time, Yards of cement, wind load calc's, engineering fees, permits, purchasing and handling timbers, subcontractors, etc. These bids require taking up tme from others for them to quote and record these figures. I don't want to waste their time and sometimes figure that if I'm dealing with a price shopper, I'll charge a couple hundred bucks at this point, informing them the fee will be credited toward the job price should we be awarded the bid.
There are those that call for a price and know who they want to deal with before they call you. They need something faxed to them so they can justify the deed. I charge them for a price on anything if I suspect what they're up to.
Do you all have hard rules about how to proceed with any situation? I tend to be more playful and intuitive and have no guidelines manual to follow.
W.W.K.D.? This is for Donna.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A car dealership is moving to a new building, and as usual, the big sign shop gets the big stuff, and I get called in to do quote little stuff.
So I spent about 2 hours on the whole quote, that included leaving the shop, seeing the customer, preparing the quote and faxing it off.
The price came to $635.00 for signs I could easily make in 1 day and install. I bumpped up the quote to $865.00 and gave them a "package" sign price of $665.00.
Everybody wants a deal. Everybody wants to think they are getting the upper hand. The car dealers operate the same way.
What does this have to do with quotes? I dunno. I just felt like I had to type SOMETHING in on this post.
If I get the job, I will get back the two hours on the quote, and if another sign shops gets to see my quote, I will get screwed as usual.
Its about the same as stupidly leaving your sign layout sketch with the customer. The next sign shop in gets the sketch! The next sign shop in gets to see the quote.
The ONLY way I have found to protect against this is to stall as long as possible giving the quote, then making the comment I can get the job completed by their dead line!
If I stall long enough, I can usually see if another shop has quoted and then do the same thing to them they would have done to me!
ITS A DIRTY WORLD, SO YOU HAVE TO PLAY DIRTY SOMETIMES.
------------------ Go Get 'Em..... :) AKA Raptorman on #Letterheads mIRC Chat Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Proud 2-yr. $upporter of this Web Site (May 1999-May 2001)
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave....There must be something devious in all us "Daves"!!! I like both of your ideas. Bumping the "quote" and then discounting that price!!! hehehehee ( Do unto them what they do unto you when you go to buy a used car!!!!!!). Waiting till the last minute to quote so you can get in just under the lower guy, as long as it is still a good money-making deal. (Do unto them....etc. again!!!!) I LOVE it!!!!!
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
Re: What Would Kari Do, she does as I do as per my post. If I notice that we aren't winning enough bids that she's done, I do a quick check to see that the quotes are in line with what I would charge.
This move doesn't necessarily guarantee we win more bids as I tend to bid high as well. And on goes the bidding game.
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I like the Dave thing....we have what we call a 15% pain in the ass fee....car dealers tend to be the worst since nobody wants to pay their posted price they don't feel they should pay ours...so we add it on and if they want a discount which they always do I have 15% leeway...What I hate and haven't found a way around it is working to educate a customer on product that would best suit them and they take all the info/research gladly for free and then shop with more knowledge and therefore get better pricing cause now they know what they want...I don't put dimensions or particulars on my bids anymore..make the next guy work as hard as I did...I've looked at jobs that require going up a 40 foot pylon to measure the sign and the customers want me to just give them the dimensions so they can shop easier...well it may be arrogance but if the customer wants a second bid the next guy can go up and measure it him/herself...ironically enough I had to stop typing and take a phone call...this customer purchased a business whose sign I did two years ago and he wanted to confirm size so he can get bids...I said I think...that sounds close...that could be right...what do you think?? Should I have told him that's a 4X4???
posted
Have a sign posted in the shop: 'Estimates are FREE, sketches ARE NOT'
We do not make estimates over the phone except for established clients, this greatly cuts down on the 'shoppers' calling everyone in the book. I tell the customer I will make a rough estimate based on their information, if my prices are within their budget then I will make a few design sketches when they make a deposit to secure the job. For estimates that require us to make a site survey, we charge a 'service call' minimum of $35 plus a mileage fee of $1 per mile. You'd be surprised at how many suddenly realize they don't need you to come look at a window or door anymore. When making estimates we do have a charge for the time involved in preparation, this is added into the bid and averages about 10 to 20 percent of the cost of the job. Anyone not charging for estimate time is losing money unless you're getting every job you bid on,,,, and then if you're getting every job you bid on your losing money beacause your rates aren't high enough. If you get half the jobs you bid on then your rates are about right and your making up for the time spent on the lost bids. Billable hours per week can be a killer when you spend too much time chasing low dollar jobs for free. Who wants to spend half their time chasing work and then only charge 'normal' shop rate for the time spent producing? That's why I'm amazed when someone says their rate is in the $25 to $35 per hour range(American), when you add the 'time to run the business' factor into to the actual billing time you end up working for half your shop rate. Then take out the overhead, taxes and misc. losses and your working for minimum wage,,,, or less.
------------------ Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where gonna find the time to do it over?
Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:I'm amazed when someone says their rate is in the $25 to $35 per hour range(American)
I think those of us who work out of our homes, and that's probably a lot of us, should pay special attention to this statement.
Even someone starting out in signs realizes that the hourly shop rate is not your hourly wage. It certainly includes that. But it also includes overhead and expenses: the costs of doing business.
The temptation, if you are home-based, is to downplay overhead. But overhead is still there. We can't make the mistake of saying that we have no overhead just because we work out of the garage. We still have telephone & utilities, vehicle expense, computer payments, and a portion of the rent. It is risky to offer lower prices just because your business is not in a separate location. Why? Because we could be setting ourselves up for problems if we decide we've outgrown the house and want to move into a regular shop. Primarily, you will talk yourself blue in the face trying to explain to your customers why you are forced to raise prices. And they won't believe you.
Determining an accurate hourly shop rate is one of the single most important things you can do if you plan to work for yourself. It has nothing to with whether you charge "by the hour" or "by the job."
Think of your business as a motor vehicle. If I never check my gas mileage, does that mean my car doesn't have one? No, every car has a mileage rate. And it varies, depending on our driving habits and the running condition of the motor. In fact, checking the mileage of your car periodically can actually tip you off to a mechanical problem.
The same is true with a business like sign making. Periodically re-calculating my shop rate, along with periodically job-costing, can tell me if my selling prices are really right. It's true there are shortcuts available for arriving at a rough price for any given job, such as the Sign Contractor's Pricing Guide. But, it is just that--a guide. Comparing selling prices to those of other shops can be helpful, but not conclusive, really, not even a guide. Because everyone's circumstances differ. What if your competition is not even selling at a profit? Even comparing hourly rates can be misleading. For example, my hourly rate, as I now compute it, is only a breakeven point. I used to have a built-in profit to my hourly rate. Then I added to that the cost of materials, with each having varying mark-ups, depending on the item. Now, my system is simpler. My rate represents my wages (with taxes) and overhead only. To that I add my materials, at cost. Then I multiply all of it by a profit factor. For me, it's a simpler system than before. But it's still accurate. Obviously, when customers ask my shop rate, I don't give them a 'breakeven rate' as my answer. That would mislead them. In practice, I don't give them any rate. I tell them I price "by the job," and they are usually satisfied with that. This way of calculating a selling price is not necessarily the best way, or even better than anyone else's. But it's easy for me.
Finally, I don't think the importance of an accoutant's advice can be easily overestimated. If you find one that you can talk to and ask questions of, one that will recommend ways to improve your business, perhaps without even being asked, and, who understands your desires and plans for the future, you will probably find that he is, by far, your most important advisor. I recommend: Don't try to go it alone. Isn't that like the accountant trying to do his own signs?
posted
I quote prices, in a general manner, so much a sq ft so much a letter(vinyl) but I always tell them, if they come by, we can make a layout and finalize pricing, or if I go out, like to a boat or business, then there is a survey charge. Minimal but businesslike and deductable off the final job or acutally included in the price. Bill
------------------ Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud second year Supporter of the Letterheads Website MailTo:twobeesusa@netscape.net
Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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I like both of your ideas. Bumping the "quote" and then discounting that price!!! hehehehee ( Do unto them what they do unto you when you go to buy a used car!!!!!!). Waiting till the last minute to quote so you can get in just under the lower guy, as long as it is still a good money-making deal. (Do unto them....etc. again!!!!) I LOVE it!!!!! 
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