I love it when I see people helping to lift the spirits of the disallusioned.

But on the days I come here and someone is on a tear about one thing or another that doesn't matter to anyone but them...I just hate reading it.

I used to answer these posts and usually got jumped on (sometimes even when I agreed with them)but I finally learned the only reason those posts are her to start with is to see what kind of reaction they can get and rarely do they have anything to do with the industry.

Once in a while I'll read one ...shakle my head and move on.

Anyone else feel this way?

I look at the various threads as a series of conversations between friends, each with its own topic. You, I or anyone else has the opportunity to choose to participate or not to participate.

When someone "goes on a tear", I'm not sure if they are deliberately trying to stir something up or not. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I assume that they are wanting to discuss something that is important to him or her with friends who have similar interests.

I like OT posts. It helps to break up the monotony. It think it is part of what sets this site apart from other sites.

I could be wrong, but I think the problem is the attitude and the sarcasm in some folk. Its like a few weeks ago when I said something in jest. I even put the little smiley face with the tongue sticking out to show I was just kidding - and WHAM - here come the self-appointed Letterville Post Police making sarcastic remarks about what I said. The sad thing is that its always the same people every time. Ever notice that you never hear from one of them (no helpful hints or offering assistance)until there is a chance to slam somebody. And its the same yahoo's who start sending e-mail to egg things on behind the scenes.

Its these people who are the problem - not the topic itself.

i agree glenn.

i try to be helpful, and sometimes i get on a rant.

trying to be a kinder and gentler mark fair.
be considerate of folk's feelings.
there are some good people here(you included glenn.)

life is too short to be mad at anyone.
after all we basically have the same goal, that is to be the very best we can be in this crazy world of sign people.

i learn from everyone here regardless of experience.

bless this website and all of the people contained herein.

mark

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]

Now that I've bought in to a busy, pull-my-own-weight pursuit of the american dream I am happier then ever. But sad to say, it has certainly cut way down on the social interactions.

I am very stoked to have found this BB because I can just hang out & listen for a while sometimes, or participate other times, and it relates to my life. Does me good in tangible ways.

But I wonder if Doug hasn't hit on something. A one person operation home-based can feel a little isolated at times. Perhaps we use the BB at times to replace the early morning trip to the local cafe for social stimulation. Un fortunately, sometimes the stimulation is the Evinrude in the "poop ditch!"

The cafe keeps serving coffee and we keep doing signs.

This is one of those areas that will never see a balance between topical and off topic subjects that will suit everybody. Human nature just doesn't work that way. Like most of you, what I have gained from the BB "On-Topic" posts far outweighs the OT posts. Some of those I read, and some I don't.

For one, I'd like to see a "BS" section, seperated out just like the portfolio section is. The off topic stuff is ok, cool even, but it clogs up the sign related stuff. I agree the sense of community is outstanding and a big part of the attraction. Just needs to be some sectioning done, IMHO.

As for the 'kinder gentler...' anything, I think this is a overly worried about sentiment. Art by nature, is up for interpetation. If you post it, expect some good and SOME BAD replies, and dont take it as a personal attack! My views and opinions are not yours, (even though they should be..lol) and vice versa. If I think your artwork stinks or your sense of balance is off, do not have a duck if I voice that feeling. You asked, you received, let it go - it wasnt a mark on your permanent record or the observation that your mother was on the cover of Crackwhore Monthly, k?

My other concerns.....

1 - making people feel stupid for asking what to you, sounds like a dumb or 'should know' question.

2 - vinyl is looked down upon over paint.

3 - that had there never been a computer made available to the masses, 99% of us wouldnt be here.

4 - if someone expresses their honest opinion, it brands them for life without parole. (i.e. - he's a schmuck because he thinks Ollie's a ... she's a beech because she said to mortimer...)

5 - how it is so frowned on when someone asks for a font, clipart, etc. People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.. and I doubt if everyone had their hard drive checked today, there would be at least one 'grey area' thing there.

6 - I'm sure I'll think of something else when the responses to this start rollin' in

What I would wish for - is everyone be honest to themselves without fear of reprisal or judgement. I would also hope that people that dont get the response they were hoping for take it as honest opinion and not a personal vendetta. I would also hope people with nothing better to do than pick a fight or seek conflict would do so at a local bar - where a real live person could give them a real live, real time, complimentary can of whupass.

OK, rant over.

For now.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Robb Lowe ]

Though some of the questions and statements are re-hashed on a weekly basis doesn't confuse enough of us as some find it necessary to bring this to our attention.
So now we should think first and post whatever you feel is polictically correct such as where one can find a pounce wheel as if a sign supplier such as Glanz, Rayco or Midwest doesn't have an 800 number and only caters to their home state. Maybe this craft or trade doesn't have the knowledge one is given credit for but at least one should have common sense!

As far as the "kinder/gentler" aspect goes, I think it is a matter of how something is said, more so than what is said.

Example; If one tells someone to go to hell, especially face to face, this is pretty nearly guaranteed to get somebody a fat lip. On the other hand, if something approaching diplomacy is used, one can tell somebody to go to hell in such a way that the person who has been told can't wait to get home and start packing for the trip.

I've seen enough "shoot from the lip" here, and in life in general, to believe that the state of the world would be a whole lot better with more of the kinder/gentler.

With the exception of the above, I agree with Robb Lowe.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]

Rob Lowe I lost your # ! Please email it to me again. I swear this will be the last time and I dont dislike you becouse you like computer graphics.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan E Young ]

I had a long conversation with Barb and Steve at Duck Soup about this same subject, and I know this drives them crazy. They want everybody to be one big happy family, but let's face it, we have some drunken uncles, wayward cousins, twisted sisters, and berating brothers in our clan. For better or worse, here we are, spinning thru Letterville together, come what may.

Just an interesting conversation amongst friends.

One statement that did bother me tho was someones comment about vinyl being "looked down on"...I sometimes think people that have not come up thru the "lard oil and charcoal powder days" feel (for some unknown reason) as tho they aren't at the same level as those that have.

I don't think I have(I hope) ever made a comment to make anyone insecure or down play vinyl.I was fortunate enough to have been born at a time when paint was the king...it's not any more and I like nearly everyone here make my living with a computer.

I will however go out of my way to pick up a hand lettering job and I will enjoy it far more than I ever have vinyl, but I don't think that makes me a brush snob.

The bottom line is...do the job anyway you can and make the most amount of money possible.If no one can understand that philosophy they are lost anyway.

You want to talk vinyl with me ?...have at it...those who want to talk brush...have at it.

I eat and sleep Signs and I actually feel the ultimate longest lasting signs are done neither with a brush or with vinyl.

We produce a great deal of our work with the "mask cut and roll" method and sometimes we spray
instead of roll.This method is far more economical a way to produce signage than with a brush or even (dare I say it) with vinyl.

I don't seem to have a finish to all this ...except to say if your a "Sign man or woman"
I'll share anything with you and expect the same from everyone here.

Vinyl is wonderful for small letters, ornate letters, and signs that seem like a book. But...large simple signs can be done quicker and cheaper with paint. Also, shadows using a brush are also quicker and much cheaper than vinyl shadows. Ever try to do a wall job with vinyl?

I am primarily a brush guy, but do use vinyl when it is able to save me money & time!

Banish OT Subjects to a diffent area? NEVER! This is a community of diverse people...not an inustrial district!!!!!!!

George Washington never said that.

"There frequently appears in the Freethought press, of whatever name, a quotation from or reference to that part of the United States Treaty with Tripoli of 1796-97 to the effect that the United States was not founded on the Christian religion. Generally the so-called quotations are misquotations and the words are attributed to George Washington as author. Since there is no evidence whatever that George Washington wrote the Treaty or any part of it, the most that can be said is that he approved of it. . . . He objected to atheists using this quotation and called it "a most flagrant misquotation for evil purposes." To which it should be stated that the passage in question is genuine and is not used for "evil purposes" unless truth and Americanism are evil purposes. This does not refer to the original text of the treaty now in the Department of State files, with the Arabic text on the right-hand page and the English translation on the left, but to an outline drafted by Joel Barlow in English which he used in negotiating the treaty before it was drawn up and agreed to by both sides. Barlow did not alone draft the treaty as it stands, but he worked it out with the Moslem leaders and then translated it into English." - Sherman D. Wakefield

Source: http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/june_july97/tripoli.html

I guess this really proves that everyone will read into any post what they feel the most.

No matter...it at least has come in a calm and interesting manner.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], ... ("Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797. Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America. Edited by Hunter Miller. Vol. 2, 1776-1818, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1931, p. 365. From George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 45. According to Paul F. Boller [George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 87-88] the treaty was written by Joel Barlow, negotiated during Washington's administration, concluded on November 4, 1796, ratified by the Senate in June, 1797, and signed [see below] by John Adams [2nd U.S. President] on June 10, 1797. Boller concluded that "Very likely Washington shared Barlow's view, though there is no record of his opinion about the treaty ..." [p.88]. Jefferson was Secretary of State in Washington's first administration but had resigned when the treaty was written. Jefferson was Vice-President when the treaty was ratified and signed. Barlow, identified in The American Heritage Dictionary as an American "poet and diplomat," 1754-1812, knew and corresponded extensively with Jefferson. Among many letters Jefferson wrote Barlow was one written on March 14, 1801, just ten days after Jefferson's first inauguration as President.)

Just so you know the facts as I find them at
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

Your source is incorrect as it does not give the entire story.

What your sources have left out is the fact that Article XI of the Treaty is not in the original Arabic copy.

Secondly, my resonse was to Jeremy's statement that the quote came from G. Washington when in fact it did not.

Please go back and re-read my source. It explains in further detail.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

In discussions among my friends,we discuss many things....sometimes important...sometimes not...but as friends we listen to it all. I certainly don't expect my friends to think like I do...just hear me out.