If we would all take the time to read that post of Cam's - and truly digest it - you will see that these actions have all been borne out of the failed political philosophies of MANY countries (especially ours) toward the Middle East. We really have brought much of this on ourselves.

If someone had done the same thing to us in this country (stolen land, failed promises - genocide, etc. - hmmm, sounds like the plight of the Native Americans) I suspect we would react in desperate ways too. Point of fact, virtually everyone I hear is screaming with the same venom towards the terrorists as they had toward us.

Now I hate them to for what they did - so please don't bash me on that note. I am a marginal pacifist - but I still want the problems here eliminated - the people/groups responsible AND the political theologies that put us where we are.

But isn't a prayer for our politicians to come up with a fair and equitable political philosophy as necessary as one for the victims of this tragedy and their families? Wouldn't we be better served with a tactical and rational approach to the problem instead of always pointing our guns at someone?

Emotion needs to subside here (including Letterville) and reason should take over. Instead of attending candlelight vigils, why not spend the time writing to your politicians (your voice gets them elected - we DO possess the power) and asking for a more equitable Middle Eastern political philosophy?? (We have to be there people - we NEED their oil until we can come up with another type of fuel - so peace is absolutely necessary)

But what do we teach our children here with all our outspoken anger and hatred towards anyone from the Middle East? I suspect they are learning racial hatred unless we educate them about WHY this happened instead of hearing from adults: "Let's kill all the SOB's".

Children learn from adults, right? Did these school kids who massacred other students in the last few years come up with that style of killing on their own - or did they perhaps learn it from the adult mailman who killed all his coworkers cause he didn't like them? The first mass killing to resolve conflict is what taught kids to think like this - and adults are responsible. Not video games and violent TV. Remember, adults are the ones who produce video games and violent TV!!!

Take the time out to read Cam's post - and put yourself in the shoes of the oppressed. They feel a similar hatred towards us. Your kids need to understand history here - what got us to this point - more than they need to hear the adults around them preaching hatred and violence. Vent your feelings and frustrations. But do it out of sight and sound from the kids around you.

Yes, exact revenge on the perpetrators - THIS TIME. Next time let's sit down and NEGOTIATE for peace and sign the agreements in ink - not more innocent blood.

Sleazy politicians. This was signed in at 1:47am and is awaiting approval by the president.

If you haven’t already found this yourself…

http://www.visalaw.com/00apr3/16apr300.html[/url]

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]

I live in a place where I don't lock my door at night, or even take the keys out of my truck. That's my choice - you couldn't pay me enough to live in a place where I'm in constant fear for my personal safety or my posessions.

America has been like that to the world. We don't "lock the doors", or see the world as a malignant realm of evil. That makes us vulnerable sometimes, but it also leaves us with the freedoms we cherish or just take for granted.

But we do live in the world, and our political and economic status requires that we are involved in it. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to be fair and even handed and honest in our foreign policy. If we have a foreign policy that is arrogant, cynical, and dishonest - and in my opinion we have had just that, paricularly in regards to the Mideast - we are going to upset a lot of people in a lot of places. To then say we don't know or care about the motivations of those who hate us, is to add sheer, brain-dead stupidity to the list.

Frankly, I'm tired of the subject. I've had my say. Whether you agree or not is your priveledge. In the last few days I've seen the board degenerate (again, surprise, surprise), on this thread and others, to the usual name calling and backstabbing, so I'll just retire again for a while. Or maybe I'll just save my commentary for conversations with that putz from Illinois, instead bothering all the brilliant f***ing minds around here. That OK with you, B.B.?

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Cam Bortz ]

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kookaburra:
I agree Cam... this certain topic has bought out the worst in people... and a differing of opinions on this particular topic, has created created havoc... Pity...

---

The US has pumped money into middle eastern countries to a mind numbing degree. We paid Afghanistan 43 million dollars this year to not grow opium, as one small example. We pumped 2 billion dollars into Egypt, and so on. What would have been fair ? 80 billion ? A trillion ? To view this as disinterest or brain dead thinking is to take the side of a rebellious spoiled brat that takes allowance money and blows up his parents car to demonstrate his distaste for capitalism.

The US is not to blame for the status of middle earn poverty or living conditions. I could not disagree with this view more. Some will pretend to be "above the fray" and try to understand every nuance of a situation that is so complex that experts in the area have a difficult time with it.

My point is that there is never any excuse for this sort of terrorist behavior. And I also disagree with the juvenile notion that the only way to prevent it is to get tangled up in a hopeless mess and try to play daddy with bickering siblings. There is another way that the more mature members of the world are coming together on and that is to coalesce as a worldwide multinational force and root out the evil where it stands.

I'm for pulling back most of the foreign aid and using it to repair, defend and attack where necessary. We'll let the self righteous amonst us debate the nuances while the rest of us roll up our shirt sleeves and get the job done.

have a great one!

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]

i apologize for my remarks. i let my personal feelings get the better of me. this whole situation has clouded many people's thinking, mine included.

i may or may not have mis-read what you wrote, but i know i went off half-cocked and wrote some things that had no business being here. whether or not they have any validity, they had no place in this thread.

i never got your e-mail. i would have responded to you if i had. i have no clue why it didn't arrive.

eating crow sucks because it tastes awful. pass me a fork, will ya?

Is your email address drcas@opticlick.com? That's what Steve has you registered as.

I would just like to send you the facts. I certainly can't understand why you may not be getting my emails if that email address is right. Let me know by email. I know mine is correctly listed.

Even the attack that during Clinton's term that targeted that Pharmacutical company in Sudan has a big impact on why we are being targeted by these muslim people.

I pray that the leaders we have think long and hard to do the right thing before pushing any buttons.

Shooting wildly and blindly most likely has had a tremendous effect on last weeks actions. We as a country need to defend ourselves but also we need to watch out own actions as well.

Americans need to know more facts. Myself I just wanted these bastards to die, but I am reserved as if that would do any good but **** more of these people off more and new attacks from new leaders will arise.

Stop the ride I want to get off.

Just my opinion
Katie

And in mention of the above part about that there is no excuse for terrorism: I agree entirely. There is no reason.. No reason to sacrifice so many innocent lives... Yet if America goes into Afghanistan, all guns blazing, and kills all those who stand in the way, they are doing that also, attacking a nation when only a few are to blame. In that way, would the american people also be killing countless innocent people. Is that what America really wants?

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Kookaburra ]

I worry about killing innocent people too. I guess where I struggle is defining who's is innocent and who isn't. Islamic fundamentalism has a different perspective on this from what you and I may have.

Here are a couple sites you may want to read. It may help give you a better idea of what the US and its allies are going to be up against.

http://www.ict.org.il/
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/binladin_vs_us.htm
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/12/OGADIN.HTM

The US will strike. I don't think it'll be in the conventional manner like we've seen in the past. I suspect it will be more of a series of surgical air and ground strikes - mostly in the caves that are in the mountains. The Russians tried to take and then keep Afganistan using conventional militaristic methods. But they were unprepared for the guerrilla tactics of the Mujahideen (later to be known as the Taliban).

That's all I was commending Cam for originally. His brief - but historically accurate - description of why the Middle East is as it is today should teach us much about how to avoid problems for the future. What we've been doing obviously hasn't worked so well - for them or for us. I just felt everybody should read that objectively.

I have seen the horrors in Afghanistan now through web sites and film/photos - and I doubt we could hurt those people any more. Get those responsible - but leave the innocent alone. Remember, we are looked to for our sensible behavior in the U.S. Let's be the example and bring only the guilty to some sort of justice. (I could almost support letting bin Laden loose in Manhattan for his punishment)

Whether you agree with our government as a whole here is not the issue. It is now a problem for the world - and we must solve it as humans, not governments - by digging just a little deeper in ourselves for the right answers. But we must be prepared for seeing the worst of our past - and how we got to the point of last week's travesty on ALL humanity.

Let's learn how we got here. You'll never know where you're going if you don't know where you've been.

P.S. - Didja' ever wonder if the Bible is just a great test - and God, by giving us the ending, is trying to see if we can rewrite the end - instead of just being doomed to the Apocalypse?