posted
Looking at a job for putting Gemini plastic letters on the side of a brick building. Need some suggestions on pricing the installation. Do you price per letter, size of letter or height of building???
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
Thanks Greg, That's the kind of information I'm lookin' for. Having never done this particular thing before, it is helpful to know how others estimate the labor. Did some foam letters for the first time about four years ago(still looking just fine) on a corrugated steel building and the owner tried to haggle me down $500 on the price. I gave 'em $300 off instead but even regretted that. No more! I hate that "losing money" feeling.
That sounds reasonable to me, Greg.
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
Wayne...A couple of weeks ago I installed a bunch of dimensional lettering on a brick wall. They weren't Gemimi letters but the same principle. I believe there were 80+ holes that had to be drilled.
I used a hammer drill and brand new bits. It took me about 5 hours to do the complete install off a 6 ft stepladder. That was everything from taping the hole patterns on the brick to drilling, to blowing out the holes, to applying the adhesive and taping everything in place for an overnight setup of the adhesive.
The price breakdown for the job ended up this way.
$500 to have a router shop supply and cut the letters. $500 to sand, edge seal, and spray the letters. $500 to do the install. Customer supplied the actual layout in vector format. (A graphics/print company)
Hope this helps...(Canadian dollars, by the way)
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
It would probably take me longer than 5 hours till I got the hang of it. At $500 and 80 holes that would be about $6.25 per. That's pretty close to what Greg charges. (Anyone know what the difference is between Canadian and US dollars?) What kind of Hammerdrill are you using? Will an 18 or 24V portable hammerdrill work OK? Would I need an extra battery to do 54 8''-12'' letters? NEW TOY...NEW TOY....YES MASTER....YES MASTER...DROOL....DROOL.
Dave, are you going to the Duck Soup meet?
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
Wayne if you have fiftyfour letters to do you may want to consider getting a real hammer drill although the cordless hammers like Dewalt or the like come in handy for small jobs but you will be there for alot more than five hours and will need more like 4 batteries and two chargers. Thats alot of holes to drill. With a Decent hammer drill you will be able to cut your time in half if not more. We quote all our installations based on labor & materials. The five hour estimate sounds about right to me depending on access. It would probably take us a little less time but we keep the estimate safe. If you are going to use a cordless jobby I'd estimate for the whole day.
------------------ "Someday I'm gonna get a real job, HEE HEE" Signs Of Life 48 Carmen Hill Rd. New Milford, Ct 06776
Posts: 97 | From: Douglasville, GA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I did a job last summer for a complete new building which also included 30 or so 8' hanging signs in the parking garage with 3 holes each. That was a bear working straight overhead with everything with all of the goodies falling in my face (that taught me to keep my mouth shut!) After the first few holes I went right over to the contractor supply and bought a DeWalt drill with the hammer option. Its not as great as a full blown hammer drill but it is much lighter and really did a nice job for what I needed. It drills in concrete soooo much faster than a regular drill. Its a must have for a job like that.
As far as pricing I usually estimate the time involved and add some cushion for problems or profit if all is smooth going.
The Gemini letters have always been great and easy to install. I would get a pattern from them as well to make it easier even though you can make your own it not work the time. Make sure to let them know its going on brick, I think on some styles they can have the studs aligned properly for the morter lines
Good luck with it...
------------------ Brian Stoddard Expressions Signs 2621 244th Ave NE Sammamish WA 98074
posted
I have a DeWalt cordless and electric hammer drill. For that type of job the cordless stays in the case. Good bits are always a must and will save a lot of time. I always mark up letters and price install by the estimated hours it will take.
I have been puting off going back to a job where we are to remove the ole Gemini lettering and install new. Problem is, nearly every letter has a hornets nest in it. Anybody got any ideas there?
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Wayne..I used a Hilti hammer drill..not cordless. Just plugged in an extension cord.
As far as time...it was the first time ever for me. I am a 57 year old smoker/drinker..NON jogger and had no problems handling the job.
Yes I am going to Duck Soup!
The U.S. equivelents on the job would be $330 for the cutting and supplying letters $330 for sanding and painting $330 for install
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
posted
Not having installed fabricated lettering for a while I'm not much good to you on the pricing but... I used an Hitachi pnuematic hammer drill recently when drilling some 12mm (1/2") holes in a house slab. If you are going to get yourself a drill specifically for masonry I would recommend having a look at this type of drill. I have a bosch 800w hammer drill and this things made it look silly. When I say pnuematic I dont mean it is air powered, the pnuematic refers to the method it employs to drill (from what I can gather) Use one of these things in comparison to the run of the mill hammer drill and you'll never go back. HTH, David
Just re-read the last bit of Dave's post above, Hilti make one as well which looks like a nice unit
------------------ David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by David Fisher (edited September 06, 2001).]
Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks Eric, Brian, David, David and Dave for the valuable info. Sounds like the cordless wouldn't be such a good idea for this situation.
David, if you can wait until winter, those hornets shouldn't be a problem. Most wasps, hornets, yellowjackets, bees etc. will be dormant by then. Wasps, and probably hornets too, will leave their nests and hibernate in a cavity of some type for the winter.
Thanks for the help everyone!
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
i too own the bosch 800w hammer drill. a great drill.
i haven't installed any gemini stud mounted letters in a while(when i have a job such as this i sub the installation out.
one quick tip to make your own "pattern" screw the stud monts into the backs of the letters, draw a base line onto brown pattern paper, rub the ends of the studs with a stick of charcoal and eye ball kern your lettering. once you have the lettering lined and spaced like you want it, firmly push the face of the letter against the paper and the studs leave an impression with the charcoal smudge. punch holes with a phillips head screwdriver into the mount points(against a sheet of insulation foam)
fold the pattern in half to find the center of the line of copy, pounce the holes with talc or powdered charcoal onto the wall you are applying the lettering to. you are left with hole marks to drill yoour holes. i hope i made sense! LOL good luck
posted
Don't buy the install pattern from gemini. Download the fonts from www.signletters.com, then penplot a pattern. I do alot of this kind of thing and have made a set of special studs. They are short and pointed (just hit them with a file or a bench grinder) laythe pattern down on a piece of cardboard or styrofoam and push the studs through the pattern, its quick and saces a few bucks. As far as pricing goes, you'll get the hang of it, but for 8" letters I would say around 15- 20 bucks a letter
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted
Thanks Mark, that sounds like it would work great. The Jurassic Park method? HAHAHAHA.
Ken, You mean I can download the exact fonts they're gonna use, size them, kern them letters right on the computer and plot 'em out? CCCCCCCOOOOOEEEEEELLLLLLL! Do those short studs just screw in onto the letters? Then I could pounce the holes to wall like Mark says. Sounds mighty accurate to me. I'm ready. Now to close the deal.
Thanks!
Michael, you been out smokin' with the bees again?
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
I got some 6" letters w/studs going onto a stucco covered 1 1/2" styrofoam face. Customer will do the install. What do you think his chance for success is?
posted
Santo, if he reads and heeds this post in Letterville? Pretty doggone good!
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
Ok, I'm doing my first 4" gemini into the 1 1/2" foam with stucco and I priced it at $4 per letter to install. Now I "ASSUMED" since these were smaller flat cut letters I could use their easy method of gluing the pads to the stucco and holding them up with tape until the silicone set....oh please say this will work...ok cuz I'm a girl and hate to use tools. Although my fiance' loves to show off the many uses of his assortment of tools, I was hoping for...easier! Thanks
------------------ Robin McIlvaine RM Signs & Vehicle Graphics Punxsutawney, Pa 814-938-3022 signlady@penn.com
posted
One more thing should be considered. OSHA construction safety standards mandate that you must use a fall arrest system when working on a ladder over six feet. The last two ladder fatalities in Indiana were falls from six foot step ladders.
Our company does a lot of work on large industrial construction sites. Our two largest customers mandated that we impliment a written safety program and condut regular safety meetings. All personnell that work on site are required to attend a ten hour OSHA safety class.
At first I thought this was a bunch of bunk. However in the first year our overall operation has run much safer. We did not have alot of accidents but all employees wear PPE and generally work safer.
Take the time to do the job right and safe. I have used our safety program as a marketing tool and it works. It also allows you to charge more for your site work. Just ask if the other guy has a program, and an OSHA card. Than ask who has deeper pockets the sign guy or the customer.
------------------ Jim Mulligan Cardinal Manufacturing, Inc. Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 121 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Hey Wayne, yes! all the letterstyles are available for download. Abd accurate, I used them to create outlines and such and it has worked out perfect. The short studs, are about 1 1/2" long and pointed on the end. Always number the letters on the inside and line them up on your paper pattern set on top of the cardboard and gentle push them thru the paper, you can circle the hole with a sharpie marker just like gemini does. Then just tape the pattern to the wall and drill thru your exsisting holes in the pattern. The initial set up of making these sharp studs is not much and it save you like 3 bucks a letter i think for them to provide a pattern. My set of sharp studs is maybe 30 wich is plenty cuz you can take them out and put them in the next letter and keep going.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted
Thanks Jim for the safety alerts. I plan to use a scaffold for par of them and a manlift or bucket for the rest. More PPE would me feel alot better about it too, for sure. Thanks
Wow, thanks for the extra info Ken! I really like that method.
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
I have done a fair amount of mounting stud letters the last few years. You have lots of good advice here from others but one option has not been mentioned. If you have to go up a ladder to mount these a helper can save you a lot of time and wear on your legs. Take a bucket on a rope and have the helper pass the tools, letters and silicone up to you. He can also screw the studs into the letters and go back and make sure your letters are straight and kerned correctly after each one is installed.
This type of job can mean a lot of trips up the ladder if you are working alone.
Santo...If your customer has never done this before and he has to install them on a ladder I guarantee you they won't be straight and they won't be kerned correctly. Somehow the world looks different when you are on a ladder with a letter in one hand and calking gun in the other. Highly unlikely they will go to the trouble of snaping a level chalk line before they start mounting. That would take two people and two ladders!
------------------ Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945
posted
We do a couple of these jobs a month. I order the patterns from Gemini and use their fonts to do the layout for them so they don't get the letter spacing/kerning wrong. I email the eps file with the right spacing and they send the pattern(s) with the letters. I check the patterns when they come in (they screw these up frequently) and then send the installer out. We charge $10/letter for small letters at ground height (3-8 ft) on up to $50/letter for large letters up high (over 30 ft). Most of our installs are on masonry or metal buildings. We also have ordered quite a few custom formed logos this year. I use their lifetime warranty as a big selling point to the customer.
posted
Chuck, Thanks for the advice! My wife LynnDee or son Josh are the best helpers you could find anywhere. Yes, that is definitely a plus.
Thanks Brad, I like to do my own kerning/layout too.
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
posted
Wayne, I don't know if you have installed these letters yet. One thing, I read in your initial post was installing some letters. You really didn't mention what size the letters are. I see you got some good advice if you have to drill holes, but if the letters are not stud mounted...you can use double face foam tape, and dabs of "Liquid Nails" and those letters are not going anywhere, you won't have to drill anything. I have installed Gemini letters with the foam body and plastic faces 2' feet in height this way and they are still mounted. But then again, I guess lot has to do with the area one lives in, just a suggestion...
------------------
aka: Cisco aka:Traveling Millennium Sign Artist http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935
"to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98
Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Thanks Cisco, a few of the letters are to be 8'' and the majority will be 12''. There will also be a custom logo about 14'x4' in two parts. I will check into the liquid nails but I'm thinking that it would need to be stud mounted on the brick building. We have hurricanes and tropical storms pass thru here sometimes.
Thanks very much.
------------------ "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Albert Einstein
Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.
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