posted
One of the best reference materials I've found are the "Best of (letterheads, cards, brochures, logos, etc.)" series of hardback books. I own a few of them, and refer to them when seeking inspiration.
There are always a few Grade A designs in these books, that stick with you. One for me was a leaf wrapped around the letter "I". Last month, I see that same logo, on a signshop buisness card in SignCraft magazine.
While he did (the signshop person) squash the "I" a bit, you'll notice the leaf is completely unchanged.
What say you, citizens of Letterville? Is this acceptable, or blasphemy? How would you defend it if you did it, or how would you react if it were yours?
I'll save my views for later. I want to be as unbiased as possible going into this.
The original logo (the book is copyrighted 1996, but I have no way of knowing when the logo was actually created)
This is the card from page 75 of SignCraft may/june 2001
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
[This message has been edited by Robb Lowe (edited August 29, 2001).]
posted
I wouldn't do it---but I think he DID redraw it....take a look at the tail of the "vine" after it loops at the bottom left....it intersects differently, and the ends are different.
I would have to say this is borderline>>uncool on the "coolness scale".
If you are gonna be in this biz...for heaven's sake learn to DRAW from work that you like, not TRACE IT!!!
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posts: 2500 | From: Clinton, AR USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
somehow robb your post with pics offends me.
no one should take a design and outright copy it, but at the same time a logo in a book can inspire someone to make design decisions. however, i don't think it is your responsibilty to point this out.
granted, it is a design copyright infringement. (i am not a lawyer, but i play one on head tv.
posted
Even if it is the same...how about the chance that it came out of a clip art book like Dover? only about 8 million of those running around and not all are popular,amazing when you look thru them what you recognize.
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Even if it's a blatant swipe, whose business is that, besides the person it was stolen from? Someone once said "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." Besides, the business card rendition is a great improvement, as an overall design, from the original (even if the leaf is the same). The shield, the scrolls, the colors, the "ghosted" background, all original. Bottom line? If I had designed the original, I'd be flattered, and perhaps a bit jealous... only because the "copy" is better.
Well, you wanted to know what I thought.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have to agree with Mark,first of all the nature of this post offends me.Second Rob you yourself by posting these pictures have published copyrighted material here on a public forum presumably without either artist's permission & or the periodical. An old mentor of mine once told me there are two kinds of people in this world when it comes to art,those that do it & those that criticize.
posted
Just wanted to point something out. This was not a clipart. Under the top one it states that it was hand illustrated, then scanned and imported into Quark where the type was added.
Robb, I absolutely love those books, and the fact that they do outline how something was done is cool too.
I don't really see anything wrong with Robb's post here. As you'll notice, he has reserved judgement and asked to hear our personal feelings first. As in ... how we would feel if it was our leaf originally.
My honest answer to that question is this. I do think the biz card looks terrific, and it definately embellishes the original design tremendously. Still, if it was ME that hand illustrated that leaf, I'd be abit miffed. I would have certainly wanted the person to change it abit more.
Sure, we all snatch ideas and concepts, but hopefully not designs. In this case, an out'n out logo! I really don't have any strong feelings about the two designs before us now. Like them both. But, I'm not as emotionally involved either. I'd feel differently if it was my time into the original logo.
Janette
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
What's wrong here is the person that is at the base of this conversation isn't here to defend himself. If it was me that had done something like this, I would at least like the chance to explain how I came to that point. You're making an accusation against someone that can't say anything back to you. Why not call the guy and see how he came to use the artwork, and why, and then post the information here. Maybe you should have done that first also.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Design 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
posted
MY first reaction was, O'wow,, He put pics of another sign co. underware" up on the block.........
MY second thought was (after reading) Mark is Kinda RIGHT...
And I find that the LEAF" art looks to have been changed.....
Geee'' I hope my post dos'nt look like someone eleses,, I could be look upon as an unoriganal.... and that would defently empty my bank account,,, and maybe EVEN'', keep me from getting on the Bus.. Twain,TBuk.
posted
Well.......neither one of them is an original, exactly. I have a book of Spanish Plates, given to me by my mother in 1956, and, GUESS WHAT?? That exact ivy wrap is in the book, but wrapped around an "L". My future son in law just about has us ready to use the website for posting pics. When it's rady, I'll post it. The illustration is on a page containing floral wraps with various letters. Mark may be closer to being right about the artwork (making one you've seen your own)..........maybe, baby.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Hate to play midddle of the fence here but I see Robbs point on posting and I also see Mark and Johns point as he is not here to defend himself. One thing I noted and I may be totally off base, but the business card does not have a name of the artist on it, who is to say that they are not one in the same. Maybe "Jeff taylor" is the designer of both. Or it was maybe used with permission.
Just not enough info available to condem or convict.....
IMHO
------------------ Troy Haas "Metal_Leg" on mIRC
SAM Signs "At old Hose House No. 8" 931 W. Columbia street Evansville,Indiana 47710 812-437-5367 Home of the: "Brush Fire at the Hose House" Letterhead Meet April 27-29th,2001
"Chaos, panic, disorder - my work here is done."
Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I read Pierre's input I said to myself "well I'll be damned!"
I must admit, I do feel abit uncomfortable analysing this without the whole picture.
I guess one of the biggest reasons I don't like using clip art without changing it is just for this very reason. Given the choice, I wouldn't want to find myself in a situation of someone pointing out a blatent duplication on one of my designs, and then questioning me. Especially if I'm charging well for it and claiming it "original".
While I know nothing is truly original, I try to put a creative spin on any reference I use to design.
In this circumstance, I'd have changed the ivy leaf.
"Originality is the art of conceiling your sources".
I'd say we really learned something on this thread eh?
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
"Good artists borrow, GREAT artists steal.." Pablo Picasso He oughta know... ask Georges Braque. All artists learn, study, copy, from other artists. It's how growth occurs. It's why artists hang out with each other. Fact is, there will be a great deal of overlap in commercial art.. after all, we're stuck using the SAME 26 letters no matter WHAT information we're dispensing. Similarities occur. I used to joke that the hardest part of selling signs was getting people to change their names to the names in the designs I was copying. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yeah....regretably Mr. BUBBA Fair seems more on an even keel on this one in the wee hours this mornin' than I was.
but FYI--an HOMAGE is deliberately styling something after the work of another artist, not as a swipe, but as a way of saying, "Man, what an influence this particular talent is/was on me."
I STILL say I would personally never do such a blatant swipe, especially for MY OWN logo.
If I am gonna make sure to be original anywhere, it'll be for me.
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posts: 2500 | From: Clinton, AR USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi, all, I hesitate to get into this thread, and wont get into the right or wrong of the subject being brought up. For myself, I don't think I have had an original idea since I started in the biz, and have always borrowed heavily from others work. Case in point: my own layout on my truck and biz card. I came across a layout on a business card in one of Signcraft's 1982 issues along about '86 and modified it a bit for use on my truck doors. I liked the shape of the "S" and "R" in the main word, and went to a heavier letter style for the whole word. Later on I found some ribbon elements in various clip art things, and added them in to spot my location and phone number. I think the whole thing came together pretty well, but original it is not. If there is a point to all this, I think that we all "borrow" a lot, whether we care to admit it or not, and to point fingers may be an exercise in the stones in glass houses bit. For what it's worth.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Everyone steals a little. Take a look at these instructions for writers:
From the book 100 Ways To Improve Your Writing page 51:
STEAL
"BE a literary pack rat. Brighten up your story with a meaphor you read in the Sunday paper. Make a point wint an anecdote you heard at the barber shop. But Steal small, not big and don't steal from just one source. Someone once said that if you steal frome one writer, it's called plagiarism, but if you steal from several, its called research."
So, who did the stealing or who did the research? Some stealing is acceptable be it designers stealing from desingers or writers stealing from writers.
Lazy Edna hits the nail on the head.
Besides, did someone lose money in this situation? Both logos are used for the business owner's own use, not for a third party where an totally original design is needed.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! DUCK SOUP SPLATTER JAM Sept. 14,15,16 Somewhere in Alabama -------------------- 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If it were my design...I would be flattered someone liked it so well to use it. And actually I wish some sign people WOULD 'steal' more nice looking designs......
------------------ surf or MoJo on mirc Cheryl J Nordby Signs by Cheryl Seattle WA.....! signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
posted
In art school, they taught us "you will never come up with an original layout", cause thruogh the last several hundred years everything has been done over and over again.
We have X number of letters and only three colours to work from. Add to that, your basic rules of design and layout, and you can see a lot of the stuff is the same.
I have used differant elements of other designs to build my own "design". With all the clip-art out there today, it seems nothing is original. If copyright laws say 20% change makes it changed, than thats the law. If I painted Disney mouse with high heels and a frown, does that make it Mickey?. Of course it looks like the Mikster, but am I skirting the laws or doing what the law says?
Having said all that I find some of the new commercials on T.V. breaking the old rules of design and "tweaking them a bit". So much so that I don't get them
I have seen various copperplate designs, dating back to Roman times, used all the time.
Now....would I have put another guys work on a website to critique it?????, I dunno.
Mark
------------------ Mark Fuller Fuller Signs Keswick, Ontario CANADA
posted
LE stole my comment about only having 26 letters to use! A blatant swipe! Goshdarnit!!!
For years I've been saying that all we do is continuously manipulate the same twenty-six letters; it's those letters which are the foundation of the whole edifice of Western Civilization. After two thousand years of this, how original can we be? So here's a leaf wrapped around a letter "I" that looks like someone else's leaf wrapped around a letter "I", which looks like someone else's leaf wrapped around a letter "I". Does this start to look like the images you see in two opposite mirrors, or what?
Back in 16something a man named Frederic Goudy(does that name ring a bell, people?) went to Rome, climbed a ladder, and traced the lettering from a column honoring the military victories of the Emperor Trajan. From his efforts came the first modern typography, based on mathematical proportions and careful measurements, from which every modern "Roman" aphabet is drawn. So who carved those letters on the Trajan Column? Who taught that forgotton carver those proportions? We all owe every bit of what we design to someone - nothing is totally original, and still perceived as design. The best designers are those who study the best of those who have gone before, and use those skills to solve new problems and create new designs; and a very few of us will create work that another artist, years in the future, will use as the basis for his or her design. Another link in the chain. I can't help but think of Frank Atkinson, who died the year I was born and whose book I open EVERY DAY when I have something to design; or how honored and plain lucky I've been to meet and talk about sign design with Gary Anderson, Mark Oatis, David Butler, and others too numerous to mention. Now if I had some elegant way to end this rant, I'd be even luckier, so I'll just steal a line from Dennis Miller: "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This is an excellent topic and I think it is appropriate that Rob asked the question here.
If we can't have a candid discussion on a touchy but on-topic discussion at this site, then where?
Whether or not the subject art is a "steal", if it were mine, I would change it enough so Joe Public, seeing the two together, would not pronounce them identical.
posted
That's the same "I" that Columbus had branded on his forehead for Queen Isabella of Spain. Hence, the Spanish origin that Pierre spoke of. So you can see, it's been around awhile. One more thing, I have some beach front property in New Mexico for sale......
------------------ Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas 870-862-5073
Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Funny nobody's mentioned the one place from which we ALL steal, either intentionally or otherwise........Bauhaus!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Cam, I remember reading in one of the Eric Sloane books about him living next door to Fred Goudy and what it was like watching him make a letter on a show card and go back to the end of the driveway to view it and squint and turn it upside down and sideways and re work it. He'd go through the alphabet like that. Point is, he did this in the 40's, not 1600's. This does not cancel your point though, just a historical correction.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This is a subject that rings close to home, I liked Bill's comments but agree with lots of what's been said.
I think I am capable of designing some good stuff for my customers, but as many experience here, its much harder when trying to find something to fit your own business. I naively looked thru SignCraft or SignBusiness a few years ago and came across a layout and colour scheme I liked, and DID NOT trace anything, I sat and made a logo based on what I had seen using my company name and changing fonts to ones I wanted. After a couple of years I got a mail from Jay Allen, asking about things we shared in common. I felt quite silly at the time, but we had a discussion about it on the old BB here and came to the conclusion that although they are very similar, the two logos are made up of very common components, and different fonts. Jay also saw it as a form of flattery, and as I am not in the state of Illinois or even in the US it was not likely to cause any problems.
WE all "borrow" design elements everyday, I thought that's what most sign related books and trademagazines were all about.
You can see my logo on my site below, and Jay's at www.shawcraft.com and Jay if you are reading, you have a great looking site, very nicely put together. Time for me to get to grips with my Dreamweaver and Flash and do something "similar" just kidding!
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
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henry, great work in the blatant rip off of jay's sign... lol! love it. but then again, it wasn't my work you swiped. what do i care?
i saw the original card in sign***** magazine and said to tracy that i had seen that design before... i got the same darn book!
at least he could flipped the other way... i do think the idea is improved. but notice it said "hand illustrated", big deal... he drew it while copying it from another source. whoopty do.
cam, i actually agree with you on this one... and edna, too... sheesh... my head hurts now! lol!
i am having a great one in the wilds of minnesota! you all do the same!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
Posts: 6464 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I'm going to answer before I read the rest of the posts so I too can remain unbiased...
I see nothing wrong with what was done...in fact I find it to be a better look. If we all never made any moves in a different direction it sure would be a dull world I think.
Had whoever done it botched it up then I would say what everyone would..."Bad job".
In this instance all I can say is "Good job...whoever you are".
Oh ...I noticed the fact that the original was black and white and the new design was exqisitely done in color wasn't bothersome enough to be questioned ...why is that?
Nope, all in all... one nice piece of plagerism.
Edit addition: I've gone back and read all the posts and I now have nothing to add...in fact I think I summed it up quite nicely thank you. ------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited September 02, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited September 02, 2001).]
posted
I wouldn't have done it. I would have either drew a new leaf, or mirrored the image of the leaf, altered the letter style and re-applied the leaf graphic to that one.
I was once told, "There is no such thing as new ideas, just rehashed old ideas." The more ideas I "get", the more I realize I am just altering it to fit my style.
Just this past week, I found a pic of a Mike Lavallee panel with a cool "cheese-hole" stripe behind a tiger. I like the "butchered" look of the stripe, so I did something similar on a helmet I'm doin'...
Side by side, you can see the influence if you dig Mike's work, but otherwise, they look almost completely different.
What I'm sayin' is "work from the 'idea'", but don't blatantly copy.
posted
Rob, I gotta say you got some patience to stay out of the fray this long. Or your off the grid on a holiday, but I think this is a great topic.
One aspect of what I interpreted to be part of your question is what if you were a client who paid a designer for a logo. (and then maybe a printer, embroidery shop, t-shirt guy,or sign guy) and then found "YOUR" logo on some older company business card.
One would think the colorful sign company logo was done by it's owner, but it's not completely impossible that it was done for him.
Henry you gotta check out this link. I weeded out several dozen sign mags a few years back and clipped out my favorite designs for inspiration. I gave the rest to a new sign guy just starting out. What I kept I ocassionally show to a client to help get a take on what might suit them for their logo.
posted
I think everything has been said. Some were warranted, and some not.
No sense stirring the hornets nest any more.... the fact is everyone has a different opinion with only their own conscience to answer for it. Everyone has to look at themselves in the morning, and like what they see. Whether its a hack, a thief, a pantomime or an original staring back at you - that too is for you to decide.
Just dont be upset when someone elses opinion of you or your work doesnt geehaw with your own.
For the record... I never intended for this post to evolve into the sign police. This particular piece of art was a close enough copy to give as a good example - nothing more. If either of the artists involved with this design feels slighted, I'll be glad to hear them out - just write or call.
Thanks to everyone who participated.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
show us robb, one of your "original" designs. i don't mean one that has been inspired by an outside source.
great post robb, very thought provoking.
i understand your point.
i try my best everyday to be original, but at the same time i am influenced by what i see in graphic design, whether it be a candy wrapper, magazine cover or electronic graphics on CNN.
i don't mean this post in any way to slam your opinions.
posted
There is a huge difference between inspiration, and plagerism.
In the above pictures, the *I* is influenced in the second drawing, by the first drawing. The *leaf* is plagerized.
I posted some stuff in the portfolio area about a week ago. Is it all original? To a point. To the point I didnt trace anyone else's work, I didnt claim anyone else's work as my own, etc. Yes, the sign on the poster is a drawing of an actual sign built by someone else, who copied the Holiday Inn sign.... thats what was ordered by the customer that owned said sign... The 57 Chevy is clipart purchased for the use of it as such. The rest of the artwork, the fade from day to night, the palmtrees, the text layout, is for better or worse, my own.
I know you're redoing your logo these days, Why not use a large sweeping, golden arch-ish *M* in Mark.. (here's one that catches the eye, www.mcdonalds.com) and maybe a lazy script capital *F* (here's a cool one! www.fender.com)
Should the original owners of those inspiring pieces of artwork get wind of your logo, I'm sure their lawyers will explain the differences in inspiration, and plagerism in terms everyone can readily understand.
(the above, was said with tongue in cheek)
Bottom line here is in my opinion, we, professional graphic artisans - should be held or hold ourselves to a higher standard of integrity when it comes to these things.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
i love it when someone insults me and then adds, the above statement was tongue and cheek. hahahahhaha
well robb you can make fun of my logo revisions all you want, but when it comes down to i,t all i get from you is opinions, let's see some of the mind blowing designs that you have come up with lately.
posted
Trust me Mark, that wasnt an insult. It had nothing to do with any of your current, past or future work. I was just making the point of my post relative to you in such a way that it might sink in as I meant it - not as you would twist it to be.
I have sued someone over stolen artwork. Was it worth it? Sort of. Financially no, moralistically yes. It ended up costing me about 3 times what I would've made in the first place, but I did have the satisfaction of watching them have to give up (and watching me destroy) probably $1500 in T-shirts so that was gratifying. As for that "20% changed" law rumored to exist, its a myth as far as I could tell. The judge had sole judgement based on his own eyes and mind of what was original and what was a hack.
As for getting only opinions from me - I'm guessing you didnt read the line about my posting stuff last week.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
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