posted
Felix's post on "Direct Competition and the Letterhead Spirit," got me thinking of a different angle. When choosing a location for your shop, how much of a factor was the other competition in the area in making your decision? Did you choose or decline a shop location because another shop was very close - or very far away? Did you choose or decline a location because there was another shop in town doing great custom work - or because there was a vinyl franchise shop in the town?
The reason I ask is because I was visiting another state and was in this one historic town (pop. 10,000) with great custom signwork, mostly painted. It was just one shop doing it and he appeared to have the town locked up. There was one other all-vinyl shop, and a "hack in a shack" outside the city limits. I went to visit the shop and the fellow was nice, gave me the ten-cent tour, and got back to work. He was somewhat guarded; I guess he figured I might be scoping out the town as a place to open up a shop. So, if you were looking for a place for a shop, would you see this as a good place to move to, or not? I do all the same work he was doing - painted, carved, gold leaf, smalts, etc.
posted
One thing I've learned about towns as you've described is that there are probably close to a dozen folks doing signs out of their garages and kitchen tables that you wouldn't know about until you settled in there. The total of the combined work they produce equals this guy's competition.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6805 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I too moved into a small area but i noticed they needed better signs (business and government). I actually did a business plan and researched the market(great potential), also researched the competition(two in the yellow pages and official civic books).
Well when I started running around to sell signs, I found out(like Rick said) that there were FOUR guys making signs on their kitchen table and in their garages'.
It was weak research on my part.
All I'm suggesting is phone the clients of good signs you see, and ask them where they got their sign and are they satisfied.
It will give you a better indication of the market than traditional research and an understanding of how the town "works".
I found out that everybody went to school with the guy and are willing to wait six months for a sign.
Research....
Mark
------------------ Mark Fuller Fuller Signs Keswick, Ontario CANADA
posted
i moved to pensacola in 98...from sarasota where i had been painting/vinylin signs for 12 yrs. ihad a good clietel, sold my client list to another shop, told him to send check in mail..1st mistake, he didnt send check, then after havin the list and a cd of some of the graphics..told me it wasnt worth $1000...the s.o.b.... got to pensacola..well the shops you see arent the ones you gota compete with. i opened a shop on a busy highway, guy rides up on a harley..tells me he got a sign shop just up the road...tell him i didnt see any storefronts in this area..well hes workin outa his house...oh well...and it went from bad to worse...went to the race track..passin out card to race car crews..guess what..some of them got ther own cutter/computer...went to the fair grounds ..they use a lot of signs...yep they got there own...then ther is the price thing...the one workin outa there house and doin this as a "HOBBY" dont charge real prices for their "practice" work....so i got em here doin 4x8 corplasts for $100, magnetics for $30, 2x8 banners for $35....i did the proper resech when i went to rent the shop....but its what you dont see that will bite you in the butt...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks fellas...I think. Now I'm depressed!
Actually, what you're describing is everywhere, including where I am right now. Now that I think about it, I know quite a few "shops" that are "below the radar", plus I know a real estate agency that advertises that they do signs. Great, they rent you a building and do the sign while they're at it! But this knowledge only comes from living in an area for a while - unless you do some major research first, as was suggested....
posted
Another angle - Do you remember the Gary Anderson Theory? Mike Jackson had a thread here on the BB and then also wrote an article for SignCraft about what is being discussed here.
Here in my small town in Texas there is an abundance of sign shops - some good, some better. In the last month one large company went out of business and two more took their place.
In my opinion if you do outstanding work and treat people right it doesn't make any difference who your competition is. In this area I am friends with all the signfolks (at least I think I am) and would never bad-mouth any of them. We all do different types of work and there seems to be enough for everyone. What others may charge or what type of materials they use is up to them - I know what I want my signs to look like and what I have to charge to make a living. If that is above or below someone else it shouldn't make us enemies.
If Gary Anderson moved into your town I would predict that within a year he would be doing the majority of the custom, quality work and getting twice what you would. And most of us would be standing around saying, "You can't get those prices in my area".
------------------ Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas rchapman@vvm.com
[This message has been edited by Raymond Chapman (edited August 31, 2001).]
Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Raymond. Yes BUT, Gary Anderson is a BETTER sign maker than I am... he's a better designer than I am, and most of all.. he's a far better salesman than I am.... so of course he would have all the "good jobs". I do have to say tho, if he moved to my area.. he'd still be making a whole lot less overall than he does where he is now... heh heh... very few people/customers here in rural southern Utah... That's the double edged sword of the pleasure of living here. However, should Gary Anderson decide he wants to come live here, I will be at his shop to worship him on a daily basis.. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks, Raymond, for introducing another angle. Now I'm not depressed anymore, hahaha!! I will look for that Gary Anderson article.
By the way, it's great to hear from you again. Folks, let me get off track here and tell everyone what a great guy Raymond is, if you don't already now. When I was a pup in the formative years, I saw Raymond's articles in the fledgling SignCraft magazine. I wrote him a letter with questions on technique, materials, etc. He took the time to dictate his reply onto a CASSETTE TAPE and mailed it to me!!! What a guy!! Hope you're well and hope to eventually meet you at a Letterhead meet one day... Regards, Pete
posted
iam with edna here....ray...if gary anderson moved to pcola...he would in be for the old story.."of new kid in town & and were all happy with the guy we got". moving into a new area no matter how good you are, is still gona put you on the bottom of the shops that get the work, notice i said work not calls. loyalty to your sign maker still exists...for the good clients. if you do good work for them, they will come back....the shoppers are what your gona get if your new in town. they come to you armed with prices from other shops...and if you can do same work for less money..then you get a shot....otherwise they go back to the guy they been usin. pensacola has a couple of "the best" sign makers around...mike sheehan CLASSIC SIGN AND MIRROR and and chis at VITAL SIGNS...these guys are great artists and on par with gary anderson or chris carter. also they been in the same local forever..so they have a reputation(this only comes with time and work done). as for air brush work we got more people doin this then i care to count, and they arent even listed in the yellow pages and they got booths at WAL-MART here and in the malls. i took the mobile shop out couple days and hit all the marinas at one end of town...got a good reception from all...but someone is doing their work and boats in their slips....went to one place that does boat restorations (high bucks here, gold leaf on wooden boats)the owner tells me he has a guy who worked for disney in orlando for 30 years and is now "retired" here doin the art work for him...havent goten any calls yet from any of the marinas....all areas are different...i think i was better off in sarasota...the people that retire there have more money and are older so they stay outa the "work market" here most retire from the military at age 40-50, so they need to do something and sign making seems to be the "hobby" of choice here..... and everybody is after the "vinyl" business. as for the high end signs...unless you get a shot at it from some client...your basically locked out of that market.
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi, Peter, and all others, I didn't choose my location, I was born here, and as far as I know am at least third generation Fly Creeker. Family legend has it that my paternal grandmother, or great-grandmother striped wagons for a local wagon maker. I also am one of those "hack in the shack, out of the garage and kitchen table, under the radar, failing to advertise, blink in the dark, nobody but you knows what you are doing" types. ( Did I miss anything?) Fly Creek is a hamlet of about 400 souls, just over the hill from Cooperstown, a village of about 2500 population. In spite of the fact that I only do what I call niche work, that being trucks, boats, and small signs, none of it high-end work, for some unknown reason I seem to have all the work I want. Most of the time more than I want, 'cause I am semi-retired. Have never considered myself the best sign guy to come down the pike, more like upper average. I have absolutely no idea where I was going with this, other than that I detect something of a potshot in some of the posts regarding those of us out of sight, home based types. Correct me if I'm wrong.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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When I said "a hack in a shack," I was referring to an actual sign shop, not someone working out of their home. It was a ramshackle little building outside the town and the work was a few notches above what you see in the Ugly Sign contests.
In my area we have a few top notch signmen working out of their homes, and they do not underprice their work. If I could even afford a home, I'd probably be doing the same thing...
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