this is going to be a long one. i got my soap box out. you better get a coffee and sit back for a long winded dissertation on pricing and business as i see it.
we do use the pricing guide as a help in pricing stuff out. we use it as guide, not a "chiseled in stone" hard line for our pricing of work. i find that some of the prices are ridiculous, ranging from not enough to being outrageously overpriced.
bottom line is this... we know what it costs us to do business in north tonawanda, new york. we know what kind of money we want to make for ourselves. we know what our gas, phone, electric, vehicle expenses, mortgage, fire and content insurance, liability insurance, equipment upgrades and replacement, etc. costs are and have adjusted our pricing to accommodate this overhead.
it has been hard at times to figure out prices but experience has taught us how to effectively put together bids for jobs. we have educated ideas on how long it takes to do something and what the associated costs are going to be. and we don't forget the gravy.....
it seems to me that too many people come here and ask "how much do i charge for this" or "how much do i charge for that". there is a train of thought in these posts that has many people looking for the easy way to do things without actually having to learn the intricacies of pricing.
help once in a while is understandable but some people have learn how to do these simple things for themselves. i, for one, get really tired of seeing the posts "did i get enough"..."what should i get for this"... only you can truly answer those questions.
it seems to me that too many, but not all, are looking for something or someone to do all their thinking for them so that they don't have to extend the energy to learn to do this. this isn't rocket science here.
i rarely answer these posts and/or questions because what i get for a job or what it costs me to do business here in w.n.y. has absolutely no bearing on what it costs you to do business in downtown detroit or east rumpbump, idaho.
we don't concern ourselves with what others charge for their work. quick... look in my eye... see any concern in there? nope. none. nada. zip. zero. i could not care less about what the other shops in our area quote for their stuff. we have a ton of work to do and are doing well.
my first boss had a showcard in his office (which now proudly resides in my den, btw...) which says... "we have no quarrel with those who work for less. they know what their stuff is worth."
there are shops around us that get good bucks for what they do and do excellent work just as there are shops that don't.
there are shops that are run like real businesses and play by the rules. there are shops that are run by drunken bums and derelicts who only run down the craft.
there are middle of the road guys that mean well but don't have a clue because of ill preparation. these people get a computer and a cutter and fancy themselves to be sign makers with very little, if any, of the knowledge, business savvy, or financial recourses needed to undertake these endeavors.
it just really makes me wonder why newbies and wannabes figure that they can revolutionize the craft by selling their stuff for far less than the established shops or why established shops would start to practice the same faulty line of thinking.
they are not my concern. i can only control what i do. i can't control what others do with themselves, their shops, their lives. that is their business. not mine. just like what i do is my business and not their's. i like it that way.
i hear comments all the time... "can't get that around here"... "my market won't bear it"... "that guy charges too much"... ask bert quimby how he gets his prices while others around him are cutting each others' throats. he gets it because he asks for it. when he told me that, i had a hard time believing that the answer was that simple. thanks, bert. i needed that.
pricing of work has long been a problem in the craft but we are not alone. i can point to house painters. we recently had a customer of ours quote us $3,000.00 to paint our house. another one quoted me $2,100.00. did the second quote leave $900.00 at the table or did the first just quote us high? one is definitely better than the other and has been in business for a whole lot longer than the other. should i bash one for "ripping me off" or the other for being a fool and not charging enough?
hmmmm... a point to ponder? i say nope. each one knows what it costs them to do business and each seemed satisfied with the quotes they made. that's their business. it was up to me to decide which one of these contractors was going to suit what i needed. that was my choice. i chose not to have my house painted by either of them because it was lot more money than we had anticipated. does that make me some kind of bunghole because i chose to try and do it myself or maybe follow another course of action? sheesh... i hope not. it was my choice.
body shops are another trade that comes to mind. when my new truck got keyed last year, i got three estimates for the insurance company. they ranged (i am testing my memory here...) from $450.00 to $1500.00 for repainting the side of the truck, not counting the lettering or graphics. was the low guy stupid or the high guy just back from smoking crack in the alley? they knew what the job entailed and yet the prices were over a $1,000.00 apart. i fixed it myself (without collecting any money from the insurance company just in case you were heading down that road) by rubbing out the paint with rubbing and polishing compound and touching up the graphics and by putting a strategic sponge panel to cover up the worst of it.
so do those three body shops think i suck because i did it myself and didn't go back to them? i know for a fact that one guy couldn't care less. the other two? haven't a clue. i really don't give it much thought. again, it was my choice.
just as it is our clients choice to go with us or another shop. hey, ain't america great? it is the freedom of choice. i have seen so many times that a "customer" gets bashed on this bullboard because they chose alternatives. maybe these posters should be looking at themselves instated of targeting others for the shortcomings that seen to have been bestowed upon them.
i used to have a shop in an area of buffalo that was not great. it seemed that the type of customers i was getting were cheap bottom liners. these people came to me because i was there and they felt that they were going to get a cheap sign maybe because of my location. i was there because i didn't have a pot to piss in and didn't want to spend the money getting better digs.
funny... i bit the bullet, got a better shop in a much better section of town, started to take business a lot more seriously, and things started to improve. i got better clients, better types of work, and better prices. amazing how that happened.
i have a partner that takes business very seriously. he brought an amazing business sense to the table. this isn't a hobby for us. this is our job. it is our way of providing for our families. it is about doing the best that we can do to prepare ourselves for the future. this has been my career for 28 years and my partner's for approximately 20 years.
we take an incredible amount of pride in the way we conduct our business. we treat our clients fairly. we do excellent work. our shop is clean and organized. we have the tools we need to run our shop efficiently. we have back up equipment cutters, computers, and monitors) in case of breakdowns to allow us to keep working without missing too much of a beat.
it does not reflect the "garage mentality" that permeates so many shops around us. as a former subscriber to that theory, i can say that it is stupid.
it is not cool to run around with paint on your clothes looking like a raggamuffin. it is not cool to have all kinds of trash and stuff around your shop that makes you look like the second coming of fred sanford. it is not cool to promise stuff and not deliver on deadlines.
just because you own your business, no one owes you anything. they don't owe you work. they don't owe you gobs and gobs of cash. it entitles you to nothing. it means you will have to work hard and learn all you need to know about your craft. i am still learning stuff every day. it doesn't stop.
david wright made some excellent points about karma here last week. the thread is gone now, but the points made still remain. while i do believe in "what comes around, goes around", karma has more to do with things than just past transgressions and paybacks and such. it is also about the aura that hangs around you.
if you look, feel, or think lowball, that is the type of customer you will attract. my daddy told me once... "you have to look like you don't need the money". this means that if you look too eager, too hungry, too whatever that the customer will surely pick up on this and you lose any edge or advantage you have.
people can not take advantage of you unless you let them. this includes all the stolen design posts, the no deposit wah wah's, getting stiffed boo hoo stories and the such. i can count on one hand how many times we have been stiffed in the eleven years my partner and i have been together.
the only times we got screwed was when we broke our own rules as far as drawings, deposits, and payments go. we let it happen to ourselves and have no one else to blame. we had to look no further than ourselves. neither does any of us.
i am glad that i had to the opportunity to say what has been on my mind for a very long time. dana just bought me some flame proof skivvies at k-mart so my bum won't get roasted too bad. thanks for listening.
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
[This message has been edited by Bruce Bowers (edited August 20, 2001).]
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well said. Every point made applies to every business. That's the way of the world.
Bert Quimbly and other multiple First Place National Design Winners are expected to charge whatever they demand as an example of what reaching the pinnacle in any trade represents.
The lazy, inexperienced sign guy trying to keep himself in Cheeseburgers and Bus fare would never even try to acheive any degree of success.
I know plenty of both types and everyone in between. They all seem to be generally happy with themselves regardless if they just made beer money or made a down payment on a beach house.
I do think advice is shared with the intent that the newbie will follow the advice and follow the voice of experience by those who know the trade.
As long as what you do meets your own personal goals, there is no set path on how to get there.
It's my secret personal satisfaction with other sign makers in my town that I operate without advertising, have the lions share of the truck lettering (which is my specialty), and keep a low profile while chopping away at thier customers with better service, better signs, but not better prices.
Some will say this trade will only get worse. Other say it can only get better. I say yep, you're both right!
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
From here on down, its all up hill.
Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it is interesting to see what others charge for their work in other parts of the world. It certainly doesn't mean that I would give a huge crap and change my price just because someone else thought I should. I also don't think it is the easy way.....it is out of curiosity. Everyone has their own formula for pricing and when someone asks what others would get for a similar job, they are just curious. One thing I do agree on is the game of never acting hungry for work. There are games to be played in every type of business and this one is no exception.
------------------ surf or MoJo on mirc Cheryl J Nordby Signs by Cheryl Seattle WA.....! signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
posted
i agree with most you say...and we only let things happen to us that we allow...taking people "on their word" or "deal made on a handshake" these thing are where we have control to either let happen or not. these are the things that YOU have to FEEL right with...my old italian mother was the businesswomen from hell(ran a speakeasy from 45-50, owned a grocery store 50-57, owned a bar from 57-78 when she died),,,nobody i mean nobody stiffed her every..and being her only child, she never let me forget all the THINGS she did for me and i OWED her. reason i bring her into this is that she lived by an old italian proverb....translated to english it said, "TRUST WAS A GOOD MAN, BUT HE DIED!" so you see i was raised to belive this.....but ever now and then i BELIVE in mankind,(this is a bad thing?) that ive meet one that is worthy of TRUST....and iam usually right 90% of the time....and i feel better about both of us..but there are those 10% ers....that really make you never want to "BELIVE" ever again....that you can take someone "on their word" or close a deal "with a handshake" and that their are good and trust worthy people still in this world. this is just a small thing....and dont seem like a big deal...but if your "word" and "handshake" dont have any substance....then youve sucumbed to the rest of the thives and liers out there...and as for karma...then it comes into the picture...what you do to others will come back to you ...iam no saint.....have had karma turn on me....but i never want to surcumb to that point in my life....where i think and feel there is not ANY GOOD PEOPLE out there. you stated that you got 2 prices for the house paintin, then you might do it yourself, also you had 2 bodyshop estimates then fixed it yourself....sorta like my customers they thought my prices were to high and made ther own signs......hehehehehehe
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
there is a world of difference between being curious about what some got for doing a particular job and asking people to price something for you.
i have seen very few posts where someone posted a job they have completed and someone asked what they got paid for it. except for a very select group of sign painter friends (and i do mean a select few) i never ask what people get for a job. it is none of my business. i don't tell people what i get because it is none of their business, either.
too many times i see posts saying... i am doing a (fill in type of job here) and i wonder what i should get." or maybe... "i just did a (fill it in again) and got $50.00. was that enough?".
how the heck are we to know? what material did they use? was it vinyl or paint? did they create the design or was it furnished? see where i am going here?
with all the resources that are available to people, they still haven't a clue. this mentality has been around for a long, long time.
i remember sitting in the crapper at wilke signs (the first shop i worked for) in 1977 and reading bert rosenkrantz, in signs of the times, touting the disparities of the monthly cost studies they used to run.
instead of coming here and asking what they should get and getting a boatload of "off the cuff" prices, why don't they ask about how to figure out a price on their own?
scripture tells us "give a hungry man a fish and he will eat for today. teach that man how to fish and he will eat for life." i believe that is the far better method to end the seemingly ends strings of pricing requests.
i know kathy jenkins (reid signs, seattle, wa) had an excellent series of articles in signcraft magazine on figuring shop rates and how to run the business end of things. these articles were informative and well thought out as well as incredibly well written.
maybe i am not looking at things in the same light as you, but i have very little, if any curiosity in what other people get for their work or what they make for a living.
i have been more than willing to share my knowledge as far as techniques, critiques, and the such and have no plans on changing that.
it is just that too many people "play sign shop" without a clue of what they are doing. remember the posts a couple of months ago when the guy got really bent about no one helping out by telling him what he should charge for a job? not once did he ask how he could figure out the price for himself. he just wanted the bottom line.
it didn't seem to me that he was interested in learning how to be self-sufficient. he just wanted to exploit our goodwill and take the lazy way out.
sorry if this seems like a bit of a hard butted approach. we all need to learn to do for ourselves. "ask and ye shall receive" only goes so far.
btw... joe, i did the repair on my truck because they didn't scratch the lettering and there is no better finish for my truck than the original factory paint. the house was just a whole lot more money than we thought it was going to be. we decided that we might be do aluminum trim instead of painting the woodwork. a little bit more money but far better in the long run, you know?
hey... time to put my soap box away for the night. the darn tv land channel is playing all these great marcus welby shows and i can't stop watching! sheesh!
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
[This message has been edited by Bruce Bowers (edited August 20, 2001).]
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bruce- Thanks for all the great advice. After six years in the biz I have made my fair share of mistakes. Some as recent as a week or two ago. But I don't blame anyone else but myself. I will learn from these mistakes as sometimes they are costly. I feel the same way as you do about cost. I get what I get and that's that. I also try not to get involved in the lowballing crap. I will not even bid on a job if I know other shops are bidding. I'm trying hard to bring my prices up. I, like many thought in the beginning you had to give your work away to get work. I now know if you just give quality work and produce it on time you will have all the work you need.
------------------ "Paint with Passion"
Rob Larkham The Bershire Brush RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com 413-354-0287
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bruce, thanks for ID'ing a problem and giving some direction to those that were lost in the confusion about how to get out of their hole. What I wonder is why you unloaded this now? What triggered it? Have you just been stewing in this for a month?
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Being a new full time sign guy,(part timed for 12 yrs), I asked a pricing question once about some coroplast signs. The responses that I got,(I thought), were ridiculously high. The only reason I asked the question is because I was unfamiliar with this type of signage. I bid the job what I thought they were worth, and they doubled the order! I didn't "low ball", I just priced accordingly, after I read the advice that I got from here.
Do other trades have this kind of support? Is there a plumbers BB out there somewhere? Or a carpenters BB?
I feel very comfortable coming here and asking dumb questions,(even when I get bashed), answering them, and I will continue to do so.
I for one am glad that this forum exists.
------------------ Steve Barba is the proud owner, president, & sole employee of Sturgis Sign Works. "B0LT" on the chat room thing. 209 Oak Drive Sturgis SD 57785 sbarba2616@dtgnet.com 605-720-7667
[This message has been edited by Steve Barba (edited August 20, 2001).]
Posts: 768 | From: Sturgis South Dakota | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Did I leave money on the table???This is how crazy pricing can get!
I had a "graphic artist" call me to bid on 2 trailers for the Army national Guard. The graphics would be all 3M ScotchPrints. As with most of my estimates I got the dimensions of the pictures & lettering & worked up my price & faxed it over. I got full retail for the job. I doubled my costs on the ScotchPrints(from $1,000 to $2,000 & installed the graphics for $500, one day, one man job!
I received the half down deposit check one month later to my suprise. I finished the job about a month ago. When the "graphic artist" came in to pay me the other half. Out of curiosity I asked her how she made out on the job. Guess what she said.........SHE DOUBLED MY PRICES!!! The army national guard paid 2 times retail pricing!!!
Makes me wonder when I'm charging for signs or graphics, if I should double my costs. Am I leaving money on the table?????
------------------ Justin Booher Vital Signs, Inc. Edmond, OK 405/348-7227 "Custom Hand Crafted Signage!"
Posts: 33 | From: Edmond, OK U.S.A. | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bruce,I agree with everything you said,but making someone feel like they can't ask a question is the wrong approach...we've only all heard from kindergarten on that "No Such Thing As A Stupid Question" is a golden rule...bottom line is never know until you ask,which was one of the reasons this board exists
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm a newbee and I'm curious about what others charge. I took the time to figure my shop rate, wrote a neat little spreadsheet that takes me about a mintue to use to figure a price. Being out here in timbuktoo, I know I won't get the prices someone in a big city may. I know the cost of living, utilities, overhead range. Everyone complains about the low-ballers and Cheap, Ugly Signs R Us shops. When I read a pricing thread, it's for a frame of reference. I have already figured my price and just want a ballpark of everyone else's price so I can gauge where I am. To boil this down, I don't want to be a low-baller. Also, when people reply to the pricing threads, they usually mention something I may have forgotten when doing my pricing.
Being a newbee, I want to slowly expand into blasted signs and other areas. (note: slowly). It's nice to have a ballpark figure when it comes to doing a sign of a new nature for me. (again, I don't have the experience most do, I just don't want to be the lowballer everyone complains about)
I have the pricing guide. Some of the prices blow me away.
------------------ Chris King Paper Works & Graphix Indiana, PA
Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Although I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and it has been totally educational and will be remembered as a post I will enjoy referring to, I have a problem with it!
For the last 5 years, our company has served the sign industry as a wholesale supplier of product and what makes us stand out is the ability to create the unique. If I had an inkling of an idea that by coming to this post to ask what the cost for one of my more unusual projects would be (or your perception of value), I would not hesitate to inquire as to the "how much for similar" that you might come up with...why?...because you have been in the industry much longer than I and I can't get a word edge wise on this post because of the ridiculously awesome talent and knowledge that you guys have. I don't say much because it seems like Dave G, Glen T, Mark F, Dave D or some of the others camp out on this damn page..( being funny)just to respond to ignorant folk like myself. The answers are so damn good that I would suggest Steve print some of the FAQ's and make it available for sale. Heck...that's where the money is!...Which is the reason I come here in the first place!!! Most of you have been doing this all your life and have been around every corner...most under the tutelage of profound industry craftsmen. I HAVE NOT!...does that make me lazy? or uneducated... NO! I have a degree in Electrical Engineering with a minor in math. I am single and have not been out or gone home in 2 weeks because I stay hear and work on my creations and new products for the sign industry that I have invented (which many of you will see next summer during the Jam I will be hosting).NO!..it's because I just love creating graphics and chose the sign industry as a vehicle for my art because I got tired of hearing..."What's your starving artist price?"
You must understand my background before I continue! After college, I started my own company...producing wood products...all kinds...then was approached by GUESS in La...to do wood products for their new stores. Once the architect realized how artistic and creative we were, he soon began passing other work such as the fascia band(a unique metal finished band attached to the fascia) to us. Once we figured that out, he asked if we could produce some of the sign package. We did and it was extremely profitable. I then was completely surprised while having just secured an SBA loan that the bank was being yanked out from under me and my loan accelerated. To make a long story short, my entire plant went to auction within 3 months. I took what I learned and enjoyed most and applied it to what I do and came up with the process of providing to the graphics Industry.
I have more to add to this but time is not on my side today! I will follow up tonight!!
------------------ Robert Beverly Dreamweaver Graphics House Arlington, Texas
Host of the "1st Annual Dreamweaver Jam" June 7,8,9, 2002
[This message has been edited by Robert Beverly (edited August 20, 2001).]
posted
hey robert, i have never in any way considered you or anyone on this bullboard ignorant. no i don't camp out here, i do check the bullboard often because the internet connection is always on.(DSL)
there is no quick and easy answer on pricing, all things must be taken in to consideration in order to make a profit.
i have met bruce a coupla times at letterhead meets and my experience is that bruce is very knowledgeable in the ways to make money in the sign business. also his work rocks!!!!
posted
This all goes back to the Materials+Labor+Markup vs. VALUE issue.
Sure, everyone can figure out the price they need to make money on the job...but that amount may not be the value of the job.
Some people/shops may not care about their costs and go solely on value. This may make or break the shop depending what kind of signage they're making.
Some people/shops may not care about what the sign is really worth and just want to cover their costs plus stash some dough in their own pocket... whether or not they leave money on the table may not bother them.
I think people that are asking about pricing, no matter how they word their question, are just looking for reference.
There's two ways it can go: 1. They can ask the question, put up with some critique, get flamed, and when all is said and done they now know they can get more for similar jobs or they were too high and they can adjust accordingly.
2. They can keep their questions to themselves and continue on blindly... either screwing themselves out of profit or screwing customers.. and if they're too low Letterheads will still complain about them being lowballers.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
What do ya do if ya just don't know? Ask here. If people take the risk to become sign makers and asked a question of the talent available on this board, aren't they helping the industry as a whole by asking the experts? They realize their shortcomings and everyone is here to help. They realize they need help and went to an expert in the field. The people on this board. Of course I understand there is no true answer to pricing but we can all come close. We are all here to learn and create and help. That is why I come here anyway. I enjoy all of the questions and like the all of the answers even if I don't agree.
------------------ Kevin Landry KnL Signs Halifax NS knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca
posted
I couldn't really care less what anyone charges, even other shops in my area. I know what my time & products are worth & that's what I charge, I am generally higher than most local shops so I've been told & I like it that way. I think highly of myself & my ability so I charge more. Who else knows my self worth & the value of my time better than me? Praise thyself, it makes you feel better..lol
I would have loved to have gotten direction on the price that you might have charged for this sign...not using the equation but a perceptive value of worth.
So how much would you have charged for 2 of these?...with install based on what you see?
Looking forward to your comments
------------------ Robert Beverly Dreamweaver Graphics House Arlington, Texas
Host of the "1st Annual Dreamweaver Jam" June 7,8,9, 2002
[This message has been edited by Robert Beverly (edited August 20, 2001).]
Installation $1800.00 Quote and Artwork...$1000.00 Sculpted Aluminum posts ...???? Sculpted 2.5 x 10 foot 3 inch aluminum ...???
Since I can't afford to build one much less own one ....priceless.
Worth to the community... Landmark sign, Priceless
Worth to your company....Priceless
If anyone came on this post and was making a sign like this and didn't know what to charge they are definitely in over their head.
A wild guess out of the blue would be $17,500 a piece. Sounds a bit high but I am assuming that this is a solid piece of 3 inch aluminum. Also looks like a sign that would come with a bit of groundskeeping.
------------------ Kevin Landry KnL Signs Halifax NS knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca
posted
Geez ... must be hard to balance that soapbox so high on that horse. I don't think I've ever asked about pricing before but have learned lots on the board about it anyway. If you think a question is beneath you, don't answer it. If you don't want to help someone who may be confused on pricing don't bitch when they lowball ya. Better yet put some wisdom in a post to put in the archives so if someone asks you can just send them to said post.
You can't teach a man to fish by just standing over his shoulder screaming "YOUR BAIT SUCKS"
yes...I would have given anything to have to come to this board to ask the question for what the perceived value of this project might have been sold by some of you...why?...because the material cost and typical markup value may not apply to the value of the finished product.
Your experience in seeing comparable projects or monument signs with a unique twist to (for which I have been told this is a "never been done before" project) I find to be invaluable. I don't as a newbie to the sign industry want to lose the project because it's a great addition to the scapbook and a continued compliment to our growth but at the same time, I want to insure any twists in construction/handling /etc. are covered that I may not have considered while pricing that you would have the experience to pick right up on!
This project was a great one but boy...I never realized how difficult it would be to weld 3" thick solid aluminum together...how much forklifting it would require and one big thing! The background I designed to be just a natural aluminum surface with a variety of different finishes...brushed/polished etc with clearcoat and the text would be black. Got the sign installed and the text was difficult to read...so we had to return to the site and change the background to black patina and paint the lettering white. Bruce, you and others might have picked right up on that!
The project was sold at 10k each with 5k in advertising consideration. Several valued opinions from sign mentors locally following this project insisted that the charge should have been at least 15k each up to 20k each. Those of us with such little experience are not here to underprice...that's why we ask for pricing!...not to undercut you but to make sure that the work is not given away!
The finished product without flowers!
So that's where I plead for your patience when us newbie's approach you for design and pricing advice!
And now I am done...and thank you...out of all of this I had the opportunity to get to know Mark Fair personally and he just suggested that I just start posting underwear the next time I decide to jump up on a soapbox!... Thanks Mark and I look forward to showing you my special duck at the soup jam!
I just keep thinking that what if all of the talent represented here on this board were to create a company and offer product to the public...hell...I would go hide under a rock!...there would never be competition again!
------------------ Robert Beverly Dreamweaver Graphics House Arlington, Texas
Host of the "1st Annual Dreamweaver Jam" June 7,8,9, 2002
i never "bitch" about getting lowballed. it doesn't bother me at all. if someone feels a job is worth "x" amount of cash, so be it.
i feel that the point was lost on you. my beef isn't with people who ask for help. my beef is with people who come here and expect others to do their work for them.
i do not recall ever seeing a post that says something to the effect of "would someone please help me determine a fair price for this job and how did we come to that conclusion?". this kind of post would say i haven't a clue of what i am doing and i want to learn what it is i need to do to accomplish my goal. this is a request for knowledge.
the posts that just come on and say "i am doing a 4 x 8 sign. how much should i charge for it?" no mention of help, just doing the work. this is not a request for knowledge.
i admit i got off on a bit of a tangent with the original post. speaking only for my area, i have seen many shops start up without the basic knowledge of how to make an effective sign and/or run a business.
i see far too may sub-standard quality signs polluting the area. this ranges from inappropriate letter styles, poor color choices, letter distortions that render the copy to barely legible status, etc.
this not to mention the times i have seen coroplast used as electric sign faces (just love the flutes in there for texture), omega board slung up on unpainted pressure treated posts (so attractive especially after a year when the face and back start delaminating while the posts turn that wonderful shade of greenish gray), calendared vinyl used on trucks (i just adore the adhesive outlines left from the shrinking vinyl), and the list just goes on and on...
these are all the result of what i mentioned before. people need to take the time and make the effort to learn what works and what doesn't instead of cobbing stuff together due to lack of knowledge, corner cutting, and just plain old laziness.
the purpose of my post was to elevate the craft that i love, not to bash the people who genuinely want to receive knowledge and improve their abilities, just the ones who want to take advantage and not improve themselves. if that point was lost, well, what can i say?
so, pierpont by day, i can back up what i say. my soap box is solid and put away for the time being while my horse is well fed, steady and put in the stable for the night. your horse is at the door... here's your hat, what's your hurry?
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
i kinda got caught up in this post by accident, assisting rob(posting photos, actually i sent him the link to my server for the images, it was up to him to expound)
as usual the communications on the web turns someone into an a-hole.LOL
there is nothing i detest on the bullboard more than someone asking for an easy way out as far as the design process. however, i don't think robert intended his posts and images to be such.
your post is a very enlightening post and i do not disagree with it at all.
sorry for being a conduit of disagreement.
bubba?
(next time, don't start it with mark,
teague hates those smiley faces.
you rock bubba.
(i admit i am ignorant too. would you share those "marshmellers" with me glenn?)
my new motto...STAY IGNERT! ------------------ Mark Fair Signs Montgomery, Alabama
[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited August 21, 2001).]
posted
I feel signmakers request pricing help because there are no standard pricings for what we do. I'd much rather see someone ask, rather than lowball it rediculously. When someone asks, I hope they are learning and take the advice to heart and apply it to their next similar project.
posted
I've hesitated jumping on this thread, since I know its going to be a long one and I'd like to formulate a better response than time allows for now.
However, I've been there. I've set my price according to what I thought it should be worth and gotten hammered both ways.
"you want HOW MUCH?!!?? why thats FOUR TIMES the most expensive bid I've gotten so far!"
"You would do it for HOW MUCH?!! Thats one-fourth of the cheapest bid I've gotten so far!"
So I agree that people should ask, but I agree with Bruce in the fact that they are idiots for asking 'what would you get' without any reasoning behind arriving at the price. Reason being, any dullard knows the cost of living varies wildly from area to area - Here in the south, $120k will get you a damn nice house.. in Southern California, it wont get you anything this side of a rathole condo. So my price cant be compared to a Los Angeles signmaker since our expenses and area values are totally off. (competition of course, being in line with everything else)
You can only charge what the market will bear, based on competition, area values and whats out there already. Do not throw a ringer like Bert Quimby in here, since thats like comparing Elvis to a bar band singer. He's the rarity that can charge what he wants, versus the rest of us who charge what we can get. He paid his dues, established himself with innovative and well executed designs, and you can bet he did whatever he had to, to get there. Now, he can pick and choose his customers since they are lined up around the block, but again this is a rare situation instead of the norm. There are several like him as you all know - but you'll agree I'm sure that for ever Quimby or Weisgerber - there are 25,000 joe palooka signmakers struggling every day just to keep things coming in the door.
I'll say this as well while I'm already typing...
I HATE to leave money on the table. I HATE to lose a job regardless of the reason. I HATE to lose no matter what the contest - be it a race, being in line at McDonalds or winning a bid. You beat me this time, you can bet I'm gonna find out why and how and nail your ass next time. If I have to low-ball one to get into an organization then raise the prices on them slowly till I get what I want, then so be it. Low priced work is better than no work, and you have to look at the big picture instead of a per-job view.
How come no one has ever offered up a FastSigns/SigsNow/franchise-whoever price list/structure? I'd love to see how they arrive at a price, what they charge etc. I know they have a set formula and its take it or leave it - no grey area. If you have or can provide this info, I'd love to see it, be it here or in a private email.
------------------ Robb Lowe Hub City Graphics Spartanburg, SC
posted
Pricing is like furtlelizer,,, to much and you Burn the plant,,, not enough''' and the plant will be stunted,,,,
Once you have determin, that equalizer, you must add,, shade or sun''' prune or not,,, area of growing,,, possible frost,,,,,
Getting the price you want'',,, is tied to getting the price you need....vs what I will pay you........
I also Hated to leave monies on the table.... So I would keep raising my price to any given customer,,,,,,TILL that customer goz to someone else...AT that time I know I have charge the most my market would bare.....(but I believe this process to be FLAWED)something about customer retention..?
All though NOW most of my trash is in someone eles's shop,, and I count my pride,, 0 x 0 x 9
I can do,, and go'' where ever I want... as long as it dose'nt cost me a dime...
being broke is the end result,,, of pushing priceing one tote over the line...Twain,TBuk
quote:it is not cool to run around with paint on your clothes looking like a raggamuffin. it is not cool to have all kinds of trash and stuff around your shop that makes you look like the second coming of fred sanford. it is not cool to promise stuff and not deliver on deadlines.
Bruce! When were you at my house!!??? You could've at least come in for coffee!!!!! Damn! Now I gotta clean up my act before more of ya sneak up on me!!!
A
------------------ Adrienne Morgan Splash Signs "Wherever you go...there you are!" www.splashsigns.com "Rainkatt'on chat
Printer-friendly view of this topic