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I have been getting several request for painted signs lately. Some customers are real unhappy with their vinyl signs they purchased elsewhere that haven't lasted.
I think I'm ready to give this a shot. Problem is, I am not sure where to start.
Any tips & tricks would be appreciated (like how do you pour 1-shot out of the can with spilling it all over the place?)
What kind of brushes do I need? Can I get them from a craft store such as Michaels or do I need to get them elsewhere?
Where do you get pounce powder? Will baby powder work on dark substrates?
Can you even do pounce patterns on a Vinyl Express plotter?
Do you outline the letters then fill them in?
Do I need to have a buegler (sp?)?
I'm sure I'll think of something else but this will get me started.
Thanks!
------------------ Amy Brown AMBO Design Lake Helen, FL jabrown@cfl.rr.com
"If only my toddler was better with paint & computers!"
Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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I don't think anyone here knows anything about handlettering. but I'll give it a try.
You should poke holes in the recessed area of the paint can and I use a small metal spatula to stir and get paint out, just pour in a Dixie cup and palette on magazine pages. You can also get some small pour bottles from EZ Pour ?,I think, I use shampoo bottles upside down in frozen juice cans myself.
"What kind of brushes do I need? Can I get them from a craft store such as Michaels or do I need to get them elsewhere?"
Do you have a sign supplier around ? Usually a grey squirrel hair brush is used for lettering. Scharff seems to be pretty common and are OK. I'm sure others will have other opinions on this.
"Where do you get pounce powder? Will baby powder work on dark substrates?"
It is just fine charcoal. I finally bought a bottle of Hansee brand when I ran out but again a sign/art supplier should have it. I crushed up charcoal briquettes when I first started but the powered stuff is more consistent and I used baby powder for white.
"Can you even do pounce patterns on a Vinyl Express plotter?"
Dunno, most have that option today, they work the blade like a sewing machine and puts too much wear on it in my opinion. I would just pen plot it and hand pounce.
"Do you outline the letters then fill them in?"
NOOOOO. Other way around.
"Do I need to have a buegler (sp?)?"
Some folks like em, but I would prefer Finesse auto body tape for tricky stuff and two lines of 3M Fine Line tape for simpler stuff. Pinstriping will take you more than an evening to master. You want some stripping brushes for this, at least some liners ( longer hairs than the lettering quills ).
I'm sure you will get many more tips, good luck !!!
PS Don't tell anyone I told you this but you can also make a mask out of vinyl and paint it in. I would fess up to it though if they marvel at the precision.
------------------ Artworks Olympia WA
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wanna do a little cheatin'? What time does your husband......................heh, no. Here's a quick way to paint without painting. Get some "Paint Mask", cut the copy with your plotter and strip it negative. Squeegee it down on the substrata, and prep the surface by scrubbing it with ScotchBrite pads, then...............airbrush it, paint it with a brush, roll it, whatever. wait till the paint just starts to set up and strip away the Paint Mask. "Yore cheatin' hort, won' tell on yeeeeeewwwwwwwww".........................
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Amy, I always poke a hole in each can of one shot with a nail, and then put in a small eye bolt. That way you can pour out what you need, and the paint won't skim over. The brushes you will need are quills first and foremost, they come in brown and grey hair with one being softer than the other. Good set of flats too, to do fills and larger lettering, and maybe a set of fitches to work on brick or block. YOu can get them from most sign supplies, like Esoteric which is one of the sponsors here. Pounce powder, the same place, and get a regular pounce pad. Two of them, one for charcoal or chalk powder, and to answer your other question, the other for baby powder. The vinyl express plotter I have doesn't do pounce patterns, but it will draw the pattern on paper for you, and then you can use a pounce wheel to perforate it. Lay some newspapers under the paper when you are pouncing with the wheel, and it will perforate better. I always do the lettering first, and then outline later. IF you are adding a dropshade, do that after the lettering, and then outline. This has always worked well for me. Never used a buegler, and I aint really good at pinstriping, so maybe George or Joey or some others could fill you in on that. Email me anytime if I can help you. Paintin' is fun!
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Design 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
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Amy, the answers to these and many more questions will be available at Duck Soup. Some things regarding brush lettering are so hard to describe with words, like paint consistancy or "twirlling" the brush. In person it's easy to get across. A few days at Duckie's will definately get you going with the basics. It will also give you a chance to see different options as to how to tackle a job as not everybody goes about it the same way. You will also get the chance to try just about every brush known to man to find the ones you are most comfortable with. There are always little impromtu sessions on how to hand letter going on. If you are truly interested in learning hand lettering or even just using a paint mask the trip will be more than worth it. I have been going to meets for twenty years now and I never fail to pick up something new at each one.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Find out why the signs aren't lasting. How old are the signs? What type of vinyl did they use? Go check them out, don't take the customer's word. Were the signs clearcoated to start with. Nothing wrong with painted signs as long as they are well protected, just like vinyl. Give Pierre's product a try on your vinyl signs and see..
------------------ Mario G. Lafreniere aka Fergie.
jnsigns@onlink.net Chapleau, Ontario home of "The World's Largest Game Preserve" Spring is upon us,in Shania Twain Country. Farewell snow,here comes the mosquito!
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Hello Amy, I'm always glad to hear about someone who wants to get into paint. I agree with George Perkins. Most of what you are asking would be better learned face to face with real demonstrations.
Whatever the cost to attend the duck soup meet will be easily offset by what you learn and the profitability gained. Intimidated? Everyone is to some extent, and I can say from experience that most letterheads are more content helping others than most anything else. Your attendance will be a favor to the veterans who look forward to sharing their craft.
Best Wishes, Bruce Deveau
------------------ Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 pop04667@tiac.net
Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Now that you mention it, we have a sign shop in the south that specializes in custom signage on bus stop benches. The had a planned replacement every 4 months, but NOW......TA TA TA TA!! After a coat of Pelucid, they're in their second year without replacing copy. They use a belt sander with heavy grit to resurface the backs of the benches, but their customers are ecstatic that they only have to pay once for their advertisments during the lease.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Amy, If your serious about painting by all means go to Duck Soup. I've been in the business for several years making mainly dimensional signs, but never learned the correct way to hand letter and thanks to Bruce I am feeling alot more comfortable about it now. By the way thanks Bruce!!! A real live meet is the best way to learn and make new friends. Just my two cents. Jon P.S. At first it is intimidating but everyone will make you feel right at home.
------------------ Jon Himes Impact Graphics Moline, IL
Posts: 12 | From: Moline, IL USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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I'm with Mario, not puttin down "painted signs" or striping. Just sayin vinyl signs will last just fine and look real good, and even work as well at gettin customers attention as painted signs.
But, if they were "cheap materials" and not applied right etc. etc..
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
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Amy is getting great advice all around. I don’t need to add anything, except that I want to underscore Pierre’s suggestion of masking and rolling and peeling the mask as a great bridge while you’re learning, if nothing elxe you'll get a feel for how different paints and inks behave. Hand lettering is a craft where no matter how much natural ability you have it takes a while to get good, and then its still an ongoing process.
Reading Amy’s question surely took me back. In June of 1985 the Tubelite Salesman delivered my Gerber 4 B ( $13500.— and now you can’t give them away as doorstops) I was shaking I was so scared. And I kept saying: What makes you sure that we won’t have a customer revolt about the vinyl that’s just stuck on there. - They won’t want that - I’ll only use it for the little copy, maybe they won’t notice….On and on I blabbered nervously. I would have placed great bets on people streaming back saying they want their signs properly lettered with paint, and that the sticky letters just don’t do the job. Well we all know that is not what generally happened. (sorry I’m rambling) What happened is that those of us who hand lettered everything, who did not make the switch to incorporate the new computer ways, suffered greatly by being left behind in a changing industry. And now, many years later and with change still happening at great speed, the consensus is that the best of us know how to combine the old and the new to create fresh, efficient, cost effective, and well designed signs, and are way ahead in the field because of that versatility. To be able to pull out a brush and hand letter a shadow in no time, or put on an outline, is pretty awesome, compared to the cost and waste of time and material by those who don’t know how to do that.
Amy, you seem to love the business, and are always questing by aiming for learning and improvement. Go ahead. Let someone start you face to face with a good quill, a stack of newsprint and waterbased training paint and get a feel for what’s involved. You’ll be surprised.
------------------ Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC V 336-722-1033/F 336-723-6112 signslimited@triad.rr.com
Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Lettering brushes are generally quills for the majority of the work. Large lettering is usually done quicker with wider brushes that have the hairs spread out flat, hence the name "flats". Lettering on rough surfaces is generally done with brushes called "fitches" or cutters and they have shorter, stiffer hairs than quills or flats. In quills and flats, the brown hair is softer than the gray hair. Some people prefer one over the other for various uses. I like brown quills when lettering glass doors or windows but it may be a case of whatever ya get used to also...
Amy, after you locate lettering brushes and some paint, practice - practice - practice. This means repetitive motions of horizontal strokes, vertical strokes, diagonal strokes, and then curved strokes. Practice on old newspapers and use the classifieds section so you have pre-drawn guidelines.
Pick up a book on hand lettering techniques if you cannot make it to a Letterhead meet. Speedball used to have a fairly good book that explained what to do. There's many other books that I don't remember the names of and that I have safely tucked away from Spaz the book collector, but they are readily available from the Letterhead bookshop (hey Steve - is that still open?) or from the sign supply shops.
The best way to learn is by watching and having someone show you what to do. Get to a Letterhead meet.
If you're in a pinch or just want to make signs using paint before you know how to handle a brush, cut the masking material and paint it in like mentioned above.
One tip about making patterns that you will pounce by hand: Draw the pattern in reverse. Take your pounce wheel and perforate your pattern. Now your perforations will be "sticking up" on the surface of the paper when you turn it over so that it reads normally instead of in reverse. This allows the pattern to sit right against the surface you want to paint. Also the perforations which will be on the front surface of the pattern, will help grab the pounce powder. If you find that there is not enough pounce powder getting thru the paper, run some sandpaper over the perforations and this will open them up. This generally isn't necessary though when you perforate the pattern from the back.
Baby powder is OK for non-critical use but it will dull the paint gloss if you get too much in the paint. After pouncing, I blow off the excess powder. When on a job site and finding that I have forgotten to bring the pounce powder, I have done both of these things: Go to a hardware store and buy "snap line chalk" or if no hardware store is close enough, use dirt. Hey... you learn to do what it takes to get a job done sometimes :-)
You can paint letters and not outline them if you like. You may find it more difficult getting a nice consistent looking outline than it is to get a passable looking letter.
A beugler tool would not be for lettering or outlining letters unless you were doing fairly large letters. Even then, that's not what it is primarily used for. It's more commonly used for doing stripes on vehicles and straight lines on boards and panels.
Don't pour 1-shot out of the can at all. Use a popsicle stick or a flat paint spatula like a butter churn. On the downstroke of the butter churn, scrape the popsicle stick against the rim of your dixie cup which is tilted slightly towards the stick, and held over the container of 1-shot.
Feel free to ask more questions - there's plenty "heads" here who have been painting for decades. Some of us even remember lettering clay tablets with sticks! tut tut tut
------------------ EmpY® is also known as Mayo Pardo. Known to wander Australia, currently in Elgin IL. I can cut stuff for you on my router table. 847 931-4171
I also refill inkjet cartridges for people (someone's gotta do it) http://difsupply.com
Posts: 436 | From: South Elgin, IL | Registered: Nov 1998
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Anyone that thinks vinyl is as satisfying as paint sure wasn't at Back To Basics. There is something about using a brush that is just magic. Everyone should give the brush a try...even if it remains a hobby.
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Amy- I need not add anything to this post other than I started as a vinyl jockey six years ago. I then met Ronnie Dion a true letterhead. He took me under his wing and taught me how to paint. Now all my signs are a combination of both vinyl and paint. I live out in the country where many times people ask for just paint and it is refreshing to be able to give it to them. I also do not miss a letterhead meet if it is at all possible. Meet some of the older TRUE letterheads and let them give you a hand!!!
------------------ "Paint with Passion"
Rob Larkham The Bershire Brush RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com 413-354-0287
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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Hi, Amy, From one of those "crusty old signpainters", I can't add much to what has been posted here, except on a couple of points. Because lettering paint has a bad habit of separating, 'specially if it has been sitting around for a while, I don't care for the screw in the can lid idea. Open and stir, dip out with a popscicle stick, and go. Brush care I haven't seen mentioned, or else I missed it. Most brush swingers have their own notions on this, and there is a lot of disagreement on what is best. My own preference is to rinse them in reducer and put them in a tupperware type pan half full of one-shot brush cleaner and conditioner, face all in the same direction, snap on the lid, rubber band a piece of scrap wood on the bristle end, and leave 'em till next time. The block-up bit is so the bristles don't get jammed into the end of the pan if you have to travel. The method is messy I admit, but the brushes last, and considering their prices, I'll put up with that. As far as I know, I'm about the only one using this method. Good luck with your new direction.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I think I might know of a great place to get brushes from. Timi ended up buying a whole whack of brushes & quills from an art supply store that was going out of business. He had posted a few months ago that he would be willing to part with some, and he might have some left. Give me a shout if you are interested and I'll send you his email address.
Suelynn from Saskatchewan
------------------ "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, Sk Canada
Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Terry, to answer your ? about a thread on one- shot, hit search and type in "basic hand lettering questions". I think Cam B started it on 4 July this year. It should answer pretty nearly any question on one- shot lettering an inquiring mind would want to know.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Seems to me there will be Plucid here at the Duck Soup to be demostrated!Personally I find it easyer to learn when I can physically SEE how to do something.All the while asking questions from the one showing. GET your tail feathers up here and get ALL of these questions answered that you have been asking since you first started viviting Letterville! IF you don't learn something while you are here I will refund your entrance fee!!!!!!!!!!!! You got 30days,3hours,8minutes,23seconds to make up your mind IF you want to continue to bang your head up against the monitor screen. See you and your husband in September
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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but I'll give it a try.
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