posted
I read Donna's post about the truck lettering and "who owns the artwork" issue. That sparked a similar problem I need to deal with and I'm looking for some input also. I make quite a few "window decals" for many different race car drivers who put these decals on their pick-up windows, car windows, and all of the race fans stick them all over their windows as well.
Now, with the addition of an Edge in our shop, comes the request of adding a photo to some of the decals, as a there have been more and more of that type surfacing due to the latest digital printing explosion.
I've had a local photographer approach me about using his pictures in some of these window stickers, and that he would allow me to use his photos if I would create some of these decals, and he would in turn, sell them at his photo stand (this could be good for me, they sell pix every weekend, 2 nights at 2 different tracks) and he could add a little mark-up so he could make some money too...
Well, now another photographer has approached me too asking the same question, but the ethics involved are far reaching. If I sell my decals to him and he marks them up, fine... but what about if a driver who's car I letter wants to buy direct from me for a better price? Fans in the stands would love to buy from the photog with no problem since it's their favorite driver, cost isn't an issue, but I already sell direct pretty much only to the drivers (no photo decals yet though)
The other thing is this... what about the drivers "rights"? Why should I be able to make a decal with a particular driver's name and photo on it, and turn around and make money off of his name? The big-time dirt racing Hav-A-Tampa late model boys have their #'s and names trademarked so people won't do that to them, now some of the local boys might think the same way. Who is right?
If a photographer can take a picture of someone's race car and make money by using the popularity of that driver, shoudn't I be able to cash in selling decals of the same driver? How's that for bunch of ethical questions!
I could have a much broader market (with the entire 2 to 3 thousand people who attend the races per Fri. and Sat. night) possibly buying decals for sale by this photographer, or I could just skip the photos, and keep selling my decals to the 20 to 30 drivers directly and not step on any toes. Hmmm...anyone? anyone?
------------------ Kurt Gaber Signguy7 33 East Willow St. Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 Supporter of the Letterheads Website
[This message has been edited by Kurt Gaber (edited August 05, 2000).]
Posts: 315 | From: Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hi Kurt. I believe that photos involving copyright issues is a somewhat complex subject. Basically, any photograph taken by a photographer becomes his/her intellectual property and their copyright applies. However, when they take a photograph of someones likeness, be it face, figure, hand, teeth or whatever, they DO NOT have the right to use that photograph for publication and/or commercial purposes. In order to acquire that right, the person who's likeness is being used must be compensated, and the photographer SHOULD obtain a model release from that individual as proof they have permission or that compensation has been made.
Model Releases can also specify that the photo can only be used for specific purposes...which means that it may be OK for use on a T-Shirt, but not for stickers, buttons, brochures or any other usage. If the photo is wanted for other uses, the "model" or individual, must be compensated for each additional item that their likeness is used.
Basically, you double-up the copyright issues. You're gonna have to deal with the photographer's copyright, plus the driver's rights as the "subject model".
------------------ Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail kjmlhenry@home.
Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.
posted
If the driver signed the photographer's contract/waiver which hopefully included use of photos for decals, you don't need to worry about the driver coming after you because the photographer owns all rights to the photos and can do whatever he sees fit with them.
Now, if a photographer hands you a driver's photo and that driver wants to purchase directly from you, that cannot be done because the photographer owns the photo, unless stated otherwise in contract or with verbal permission from the photographer. That would be kinda like sign suppliers selling materials to our customers at a better price than wholesale.
Now, if YOU go down to the track and take photos of drivers and cars, you can do whatever you want with those photos because YOU took them. As long as nobody paid for the photos, they are considered public domain.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Kurt down south here in nascar country the drivers & teams all have their names,numbers,& any team logo's,etc.,copyrighted & trademarked.It is BIG business on "souvenir row".Anyone wanting to sell & or attempt to market their souvenir stuff must have a franchise to do so and or sell only "officially" franchised goods,bought from authorized manufacturers.This sort of stuff can be big bux to tha vendors & the teams/drivers.Usually folks trying to market any goods without the pemission of the driver/teams is prosecuted & or sued.That don't mean it isn't done anyway inna wholesale manor, but often as not if they are caught there is litigation & or criminal charges brought to bear.I'm not too familiar with the particular circuit you're dealing with but I would assume any thing ya sell as far as souvenir's should have some sort of paper work involved to make sure there will be no repercussions down tha road from these folks.I would get something in writing from tha folks wanting stuff reproduced.
posted
This is neither here nor there but for what it's worth...since I've been through it already you might want to consider a couple of things. Anybody can sue anybody. Copyright violations are a civil not a criminal crime. You have to prove how much you've been damaged in a copyright case. Then, and here's the big part...you have to collect if you do win. Keep in mind that during the whole process attorney fees add up to mucho moola and even if you do have a case...or even if they have a case...it's unlikely anybody is really going to sue anybody over this issue because it's just not cost efficient. So, even if the law is on your side...or theirs....BFD....it's a moot point because it just plain costs too much. This advice is free and it's worth exactly what you paid for it and it is in no way a recommendation to circumvent or avoid or break any law whatsoever in any way, shape or form. Get it?
------------------ Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B 650-588-0490 fontking1a@aol.com
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Gonna have to agree with Lou here. This is, after all, small potatoes we're talking about here. Dale Earnhardt has loads of lawyers on the payroll to take care of these matters. A local Saturday night driver does not. Earnhardt sells items in the millions, the most poplular local guy will be in the hundreds. I've been through this side of it too, not the litigation, but sales at the track. I was the track photographer at West Memphis for four years. The fan following and sales are not what you think they are. Talk to the photographers and I'm sure they will agree. Some of the best sales come from the slowest, rattiest cars out there. Suprisingly, the hot shots that win everyweek, don't sell that much better than the others. Sammy Swindell sold no better than some clown that stuck it in the fence every night. Why is that? Simple, most people at local tracks aren't what you would call fans. Fans that come just to see the races, and the races alone. Porbably 75% of the people in the stands have a stong connection to a car racing at that track. Uncle Johnnie's mini stock, the guy they work with's modified, cousin Bubba's late model. It's the pictures and decals of these cars that you will be selling to these types of folks. Since you are probably talking about a couple of hundred cars at best, get the photographer to get releases signed JUST to be on the safe side. You never know, two weeks ago we pitted next to "the Litigator Racing Team" modified. Yep, a racing lawyer ( both the husband and wife)
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Thanks for your opinions all. Good to hear from some racing related enthusiasts in timi and George especially. Small time is the key here for most of what I do... just weekend warriors that shouldn't have a problem seeing their likeness' on the back windows of race fans cars and trucks. The second photographer involved that asked me about the photo/decals may aspire to greater heights though, as he was asked to be one of the photographers covering the first ever dirt late model event at Bristol this year. With these kind of ties, and with his permission and use of photos, that is where it could get sticky because that group of cars he is photographing are THE BEST late models in the country. It should be interesting to see what comes of this... if anything! Thanks again for your input.
------------------ Kurt Gaber Signguy7 33 East Willow St. Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 Supporter of the Letterheads Website
Posts: 315 | From: Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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