posted
Was reading a post where Timi speaks of paint failure and since many persons have seen work that has been painted many years back and has still lasted to today, I was wondering what it is that makes persons believe that vinyl or ditital can outlast paint to begin with. Now before you fly off the handle and describe the weather in your area or how the manufacturers have changed their paint formulars throughout the years, take some time and explain to me how you have covered yourself and changed your method of pushing the brush to compensate for the difference in formulars that we now have. I truly believe that some of you are still using the same method as when you first started or that your mentor spoke of when he started.
I cannot remember the first or last time that I have had a paint failure other then the client totally being at fault. I also believe that all painted surfaces need abit of care to ensure it will last. Between manufacturers and the EPA changing for us our bought products without due notice I find others using solvents that haven't been used in years. Being a self taught brush puller starting at the early age of 10, I have gone through extensive changing of all my formulars for both in color and in the way I work the brush and over the years continue to make room for change while still working with paints. All this week I have been changing my paint containers from plastic to glass. I still use Paint-Sav in all mixed formulars and thumb screws in the cans and only use reducers for loosening up sticky brushes while working with Chromaflo. I was speaking with Herb Martinez the other night and asked him what he used for brush ready paint, then thought this would make a nice post for the BB, so.....
I would like to know what exactly it is that you do to make your paint, brush ready?
And secondly, how long do you expect your painted surfaces to last?
------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something...... http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
posted
Joey great post- My lack of experience in this will keep me from answering this but I will gladly sit back and suck up some much needed imformation.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Hi, Joey-- For background colors on primed boards, I roll it on straight from the can, using foam rollers, and the nail in the end of the cage trick to kill the bubbles. Second coat the next day using the same method. For lettering I draw off about a half ounce to one ounce of whatever color, add a few drops of Penetrol, put some slow dry enamel reducer in a small cat food can nearby, add reducer until I'm satisfied with brush/flow and pallette on the edge of the cup. Add reducer as needed. Some colors I don't even try to cover in one coat-- white or lemon yellow as a for instance. For striping, the same as above with one exception; I add one or two drops of Smoothie to the reducer-- not the paint. Pallette on slick paper. When finished, I don't put the mixed paint back in its original can, mostly because I think if one does this too many times it will do some really strange stuff to that can. Since I work with such small amounts of paint at any one time, I don't worry that I am wasting much. My 2 cents. Have a good one.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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I have noticed the signs where I roll two coats of enamel (instead of using primer) seem to hold up really really well! The first coat sinks in the MDO pretty well. The second coat makes for a real nice finish. Anybody else have luck this way? Sorry Joey.....I am not a pinstriper..(wish I were) so I cannot comment on that.
------------------ surf or MoJo on mirc Cheryl J Nordby Signs by Cheryl Seattle WA.....! signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
posted
Years ago I painted a van with maroon lettering. She parked it the same direction every day on a cement drive in direct sunlight... The south side was faded almost gone in one year... the north side looked fine. That's the only paint failure I've ever had. I have signs up around here that I painted 20 years ago... some look new (no sunlight on them) and some are hammered, facing south and west. To make my paint sword striper ready, I add low temp reducer and sometimes I use a few drops of 1shot hardener. I gleefully palatte my brushes on Victoria's Secrets catalogs... hee hee hee. I never return paint I've mixed to the can... I try to mix up exactly the right amount so I never have any waste.. hah hah! LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi, Cheryl-- I've never tried the 2 coats no primer route, being that I am old school-- prime first then paint. What I have done whenever I've used pressure treated 2x4s as a back frame on a rectangular sign, and the edge of the frame shows, is paint that wood without priming-- paint acts more like a stain. I also pre-prime and paint my panels before assembling to the frame-- that way there is no unpainted surface anywhere. A little to one side of the topic, something else I like to avoid is the use of steel nails or screws in assembly. A few years down the road, all you have are rusty stubs holding whatever together. When I do use nails, they are either aluminum or brass. With screws, brass only. Initially they may not be as strong as steel, by the same token they don't deteriorate over time. Since brass is easily twisted off, a pilot hole just slightly under the screw size is a must. ------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
[This message has been edited by Bill Preston (edited July 19, 2001).]
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Si I hate to say it but you can push the brush on the up stroke and pull it on the down stroke..... He He He! LOL And side to side is called the stagger dagger!
------------------ Raven/2001 Airbrushed by Raven Lower Sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Well,this is coming form the auto paint side...but i think joey will agree...one of the biggest causes of premature material failure is using incorrect solvents. I see it at least 4-5x's/day....remember..1shot and everyone else makes reducers and thinners for a reason...yet most people still wanna use their own "homebrew"....when you do that,you do a couple of different things...you knock down the level of solids in the paint,and by skipping the 1shot reducer(or insert brand) and mixing in lacquer thinner,lighter fluid,acetone,mineral spirits etc may make the paint feel better on the brush or seem to spray better,but it doesn't mean that by altering the ratio of solvents you havent started to dissolve a resin component,a UV agent,pigment particles,fillers,thickeners, etc.....the ingredients listed on cans and MSDS sheets are in specific ratios for a reason.Altering that ratio may make the paint feel better coming off the brush or spray better,but it absolutely will/can affectdurability and compatability later along t he time line.Changes do take place at a level which you cannot immediately see and won't be apparent till later, And yes,i know i'm about to get 600 msgs from people saying "well i've been doing it this way for 20yrs"...but...not trying t piss anyone off,just go back and think...sure you have been doing that way,but how often has a certain color faded on you,another not covered well,etc etc.....like i said we see this about 4-5x's a day.....mostly after the fact when its always "the paints fault"...even though they were usning gasoline with detergent additives as basecoat reducer on on a $4500 candy paint job b/c they had to try to save a nickel...and of course 'gee it worked with lacquer'....just my .02 joey
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
well..iam old...and learned most of what i do "trial & error". MDO painting: 1 or 2 coats of KILZ, light sanding when dry with SCTOCHBRITE...wipe down with rag damp with mineral spirits. roll paint i do 1-2 coats and i like to use BLP PAINT NAM-E-LAC....good stuff flows out like glass. also i like to use automotive A/E spray paint on boards....the paint lasts just like it does on your car....and lays flat and glossy. one shot..is paint of choice, tryed RONAN..sucks....i use a plastic picnic plate, the one with 3 divions...been usein same plates for last 10 yrs...they get covered in paint, gouge with a screwdriver...and peel out old dried paint..and you got a clean plate. one small section i put the paint in...i use stirer sticks..to get paint outa can...after i stir it for 3-5 min...and the paint i put on plate is from the bottom of the can. get enough that i think ill use..in the next small division i add some mineral spirits from a snap top bottle i keep it in...then i clean my brush, just touch it to the minerial spirits then into the paint and then palette the bush in the larger section of the plate....only add spirits sparingly....will use penatrol if temp is cool...never get near "fish eye eliminator"...and will use dupont laqure retarder...in one shot when is really cold out...slowes it way down .....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I like the ChromaFlo for a reducer for brush lettering. If i'm working on a surface that I didn't prepare, that might have hardeners in it, and I can't abrade it, I add some enamel reducer because I think it'll give it more bite. I say 'think'because I'm not a paint engineer and don't know. Just seems right to me.
I've used alot of Penetrol and boiled oil as flo enhancers over the years, now I use them on occassion in background colors on real hot days.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just a little FYI, to add. In the days (my days anyway) there was a lot of pulling and pushing of the brush. As a former showcard writer, to get speed and do a mess O' cards sometimes you would have to incorporate the pull-push method. You would actually be working off of the tip of a loaded sable and almost be writing like you would with a pen. Some customers would come in with the Magna-Carta, and you had to move to make money and the charge was based on size of card. Sometimes we gave away too much. Thas' my trivia...........CrazyJack
------------------ Jack Wills Studio Design Works 6255 Brookside Circle Rocklin, CA 95677 writer@quiknet.com
Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Great idea for a post Joey! As for my methods,....they actually depend primarily on the weather as it usually affects the properties of paint flow on any given day,especially when you work outside or on location.Primarily the first step is always prep,.. remove any contaminants from the surface to be painted & scuff lightly if applicable to give the paint substrate tooth for the paint to adhere to.If there is a bare substrate to be painted such as metal or wood etc ALWAYS use the proper primer,scuffing between coats.As for thinners I only use enough to keep my brush wet after the first coupla strokes so the brush keeps just enough drag to maintain control.Often as not in I will on occaision add some penetrol or chroma flo depending on the temp to make the paint more fluid without having to thin it.I always try to keep the paint as full bodied as possible when in use. I have seen guys who would add thinner to their cup of paint & was taught that this is wrong as it dilutes the factory mixture thus making the product weaker & takes away longevity.Often as not I will dip my brush ever so lightly every fourth or fifth dip in thinner slightly to keep the paint fluid on my pallette which I might add already has paint on it & then redip in paint as to not weaken the paint always trying to keep as close to a full bodied paint as possible.On vehicles especially on the front where the work might take a beating I always try to pallette a lil' hardener to make the end product more durable. I've had very few if any failures with these methods. Most of the time I tell clients the end product is alot like a car finish if ya just leave it out in the sun & weather & don't take care of it & wash & wax it occaisionally it's gonna go to hell fast,even with wood panel signs.I've got a couple of pieces that have been cleaned & waxed once a year on mdo that have been out there for almost 20 years that still look great.As for the actual failures most were with maroon(I try to avoid it's use outdoors or mix a compatable sustitute) as edna stated but primarily the blame is lack of care on the clients part.Often as not is some sort of exposure to a caustic cleaning agent such as acid washes or abrasives in a cleaning mitten. One last point I do not use the new blue label bulletin colors as they are designed for outdoor billboards that usually are repainted every couple of years on a regular maintenance schedule,thus incompatiable for any type permanent signage.
------------------ fly low...timi/NC is,.....Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC http://artistsfriend.com/signs
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One shot Rick,... they have an excellant product line but ya gotta read the labels!They are a different formula than the yellow label lettering colors. The chromatic line of bulliten colors still had all the good stuff needed for permanent work last time I read the labels,but haven't used any since last summer here since my local supplier doesn't carry chromatic.
------------------ fly low...timi/NC is,.....Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC http://artistsfriend.com/signs
[This message has been edited by timi NC (edited July 21, 2001).]
posted
Here in the great state of Mississippi it's hot! It's been over 100 in my shop most every day for a month or more. Lettering enamels dry fast this time of year even with the high humidity. To help pull those long pretty lines I'll use just a touch of Penetrol to the tip of my brush and then palette it in with the paint. I just have to be careful to keep the sweat from dripping into my work.
BTW, I do "push" a brush. That's how I make those old style spear points and a few other little tricks.
------------------ Berry Signs & Stripes Hattiesburg, MS Signs, lines, lettering & other neat stuff.
Posts: 82 | From: Hattiesburg, MS | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
You guys over there have been going down the water based route for a lot longer than we have. Call me old fashioned as Dame Edna says, but I still believe in oil based primer,as the base to a long lasting paint job. We used to mix our own from red and white lead paste, but that has largely been outlawed now.One point I would pick up on is rolling primer on. Most architects and teachers of painting and decorating over here insist on primer being brushed on to force it into the grain, particularly on plywood. I don't know much about pinstriping, but in signwriting I believe the filling must be dragged, ie. the hand and ferrule leading it.
------------------ Goldenmahl Dave Hodge's Traditional Signs. Preston, England. 01772 743352 GOLDENMAHLDAVE@aol.com
Posts: 108 | From: Preston, Lancashire, England | Registered: Mar 2000
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