posted
Those of you that sell electric cabinet signs, what is your average mark up when you purchase a completed sign from a wholesaler?
When you cut and apply the graphics yourselves, do you charge the same markup percentage on the cabinet then add your vinyl and application charges?
I cannot legally install electric signs, but I'm starting to get alot of requests to sell them where they will do the install themselves or have a contractor do it. I want to make sure I'm making a good profit on the cabinet, but yet remain competitive.
Thanks in advance.
------------------ Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 ICQ: 21604027 sherwood@up.net
Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
got a guy i do vinyl letterin for, he does electic signs...i called him one day for a price quote on a box, panel, installed...he told me to ask $40 a sq.ft. i didnt get the job....oh and it was a single faced sign, a 3'x 4'.....and only 8 feet of the ground.
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited July 19, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave believe it or not i've put together 3...all 4x10's single face, I charged them $3563.73 each,no installs....all together i had $1017.50 in materials/labor in each one for a mark up of 71-72% and $2546.23 in profit apiece....cans went together in about 40min each,no artwork just simple copy from transluscent which took me about 90 minutes to cut and apply,they picked em up and installed them,all in all i was happy and wouldn't mind doing more of em...seems noone balks at the price b/c its "electrical"...all i told em was we were using the finest quality and brand new electronics since surely noone wants the building to catch fire....and some of these guys who were quoting lower maybe were using old cans,old parts etc....(emphasize insurance,fire,new components they can trust etc)....what also played in my favor was that the big boys around here will do one cheaper but then make em sign a yearly maintenece/service contract so in reality they pay more...i played it up that they could have an employee change the bulbs etc and not have to pay service calls,wait,etc each time and they seemed to like that...kits are amazingly simple to put together too if you have a drill....and believe me,only thinkg i can build easy is a pain in someone elses ass,so if i can do it in 40min you sure can
posted
Gavin, I appreciate your reply, but here in Michigan we have kind of a unique circumstance. Some idiot lawmakers made it necessary in Michigan to have a sign specialists license or a sign installers license to do any electrical work. It would be illegal for me to build an electric sign cabinet. All I'm allowed to do is purchase a prebuilt UL approved cabinet and sell it to the customer. Believe it or not, THEY can install it themselves but I cannot. Therefore, I must purchase the completed sign cabinet, (I can install the graphics on a new sign) and sell it to the customer and thats it. A manufacturer about 200 miles away claims that in my area, the markup is typically 20% over cost. I was hoping to get some opinions as to what others are getting. My cost on a 4x8 single face is $910 decorated 2 colors and painted surface (the extrusion). Plain face for me to letter was $817 plus about $120 for freight.
------------------ Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 ICQ: 21604027 sherwood@up.net
Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Over the years I have subbed out some electrical work and added about %40 to the price plus my design, survey, and permit time. The trouble I have had is finding a reliable source, there is always some kind of a problem and I am not sure its worth the stress. As far as making you own, if can not a licensed electrician and able to stick that UL label on, you are asking for big trouble. I have been looking at the fibre optic setups for lighting since they are a complete unit that is already UL labels and you can put them anywhere, works preyyt slick for halo effects.
------------------ Expressions Signs brian@thesignzone.com www.thesignzone.com 425-898-9817 Large format Thermal printing and cutting
Posts: 790 | From: Redmond, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave, I appreciate your outrage at the State of Michigan. I have been selling electric signs for years when they passed that bogus sign specialist license law. I should have gone down and taken the test when I had the chance, now it is too hard to get. Luckily I have a friend in the business with one, and more than likely is going to be the installer to. As far as pricing, I at least double the costs of the price of the cabinet and charge my usual for polycarb faces. Add markup for overall job after that and you should be ok. $60 a square is not uncommon here, but there are too many extenuating circumstances to go that route.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I don't understand what you guys are talking about. You can purchase a completely wired, UL approved cabinet with the leads protruding wherever you designate, mount the cabinet and let the customer know he'll need an electrician to simply "plug it in". Or he can plug it in himself. Why would you have to do any electrical work yourself? We never do and we install large, finished cabintes all the time. There's no electrical work involved.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Pierre, I know what you are talking about for the standard can and it works great but what about custom cans with custom shapes, etc.?
------------------ Expressions Signs brian@thesignzone.com www.thesignzone.com 425-898-9817 ***** Large format Thermal printing and cutting ***** 2621 244th Ave NE Sammamish WA 98074
Posts: 790 | From: Redmond, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Same same. Call WorldWide Signs in Bonduel Wisconsin. I'm already in Lost prairie but I can get the number for you on Monday. They're my sole supplier. The have two facilities, one there and one in Carson City Nevada. All wholesale.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Pierre, you are right and logical, but here in Michigan the laws are not. I have made that same argument countless times that since I am buying the cabinet UL approved, and am not doing any electrical work myself. Just let me install it on the building and let them contract theirs or my electrician. Worked one time with these idiots, but most can't comprehend the law. They still want us to have the license to even sell, though if one persists often enough you may get the permit. Another local law just hit me is no electric cabinet signs attached to buildings, but they will allow channel letters.??? Lost two jobs in the works on that one.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Geez! You should ship all of those maroons to Rio De Janerio! Talk about pointless bureaucratic job justification.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
World WideSign Systems is where I purchase my premade cabinets. The rep said that in my area, my competition is marking up only 20% so I guess I'll do the same. Its an easy sale, design it, sell it, walk away. (thanks to the State of Michigan)
Dave Wright, I called down to the enforcement division to question their stupid rules. I asked the guy in charge of constuction codes (I think) who handles this area. He sent me the code for electric signs. I asked him if I get a licensed building contractor to mount the sign and a licensed electricion to hook up the power on a UL cabinet, if I could sell the sign. He told me, and I quote, "Well yeah, but what's YOUR part in this"? I said that I design the sign and purchase it from a wholesale only UL manufacturer. He siad well yes in that case I guess its alright. Talk about a load of crap!!!!
Pierre, the manual says I can do maintenance on an electric sign if it comes to under $100. I guess they'll allow me to change a light bulb or 2 but thats about it.
The story I got, and I'm not positive if this is true, but I heard that a big electric sign company looking to knock out alot of smaller competitors paid a lawmaker to introduce the bill on sign installers. To get my sign installer license, I wouuld have to close my shop and apprentice under a sign specialist for 2 years to be able to take the test.
------------------ Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 ICQ: 21604027 sherwood@up.net
Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I would believe that story. After all, isn't this becoming AmeriKa?
"............an' ol' Brer Rabbit, he jes' set in de bushes........lay low an' don' say nuffin'".
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Dave, the thing on the sign specialist license is especially maddening because when they instituted it, they had local license classes in most areas to aquire the license. My friends who went had to attend one day,and of that the instructor required them to be in the room for maybe a couple of hours. It was that easy and they cajoled me to come down and do it, but I put it off. You are right, now to get one it would require so many documented hours and studying to get the license just for the right to sell and install them. Great huh? I would have better luck sending my electrician brother down and falsifying records to get it. So another area I have to subcontract and the pie diminishes. Move over Pierre, Montana is looking pretty good. For now.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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As I've told people about the situtation here in MI, more and more have suggested a law suit as to the constitutionality of such a law. I wish I had a lawyer brother.... wait.... no I don't. But, it might be worth a call to the United States Sign Council to see what they think. They are big on stopping stupid sign laws.
------------------ Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 ICQ: 21604027 sherwood@up.net
Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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hey Guys I went to this (SIGN) class it is a bunch of crap !!! THE WAY MICH. LAW READS you can not even CHANGE a face in a lit sign!!! WE NEED TO BAN TOGHTER A FIGHT BACK ! THE TEST FOR SIGN LICENSE HAS SIGN THINGS IN IT AND THINGS THAT DONT EVEN RELATE TO SIGNS (FAIR I THINK NOT!!!!) THIER IS ONLY A 40% CHANCE OF PASSING THE TEST AND THAT WAS RIGHT OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE TEACHER WE HAD ( WHO HAD BY THE WAY A HAND IN WRIGHTING THE TEST! OTHER STATES HELP US GIVE US YOUR IN PUT!!
posted
Luckily, my brother in law is an electrician. He pulls the permit, we install the sign under his supervision (time he charges us for), we become his subcontracted labor, in a way. Then, he finishes all the electrical connections. It is a load of crap, and the way I heard it, this law was pushed through by the electrician's union. I don't know about the "under a $100.00" deal, but if that's so, put your true install cost into the cost of the sign, then list install labor at $99.99! I get way more than 20%. Sounds like World Wide Sign wants to make sure you sell every lighted sign they quote!
------------------ Tim Whitcher Quality Signs & Design 107 E Adrian St Blissfield, MI 49228 qualitysigns@cass.net
Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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For rectangular cans S?F we've been getting $20 per sq.ft. unfaced uninstalled, $30 with face, $45 double faced, add 5% for UL sticker,add for permit and installation by T&M. For irregular shapes, it takes time to figure. Small signs, under a dozen sq. ft. cost a bundle more also.It also cost quite a bit more to build cans from aluminum, and welded aluminum extrusions are more than .080 bent cans. Then there is the grade of ballast and how many. WHat I'm trying to say is that you can figure a retail selling price for your area, and need to find a discounted price to buy it from to determin your mark up. I think you're going at it backwards.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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i just had a run in with the CITY OF PENSACOLA...over me doing 2- 3'x4' plastic sign faces, i got em lettered then went down and replaced the plastic faces....no big deal right????? WRONG...i get a call from the building permit div. tellin me i cant change a sign face, and being an electic sign on top of that with out permits and their O.K. and that i better get registered with the city because if i dont i cant put a sticker on a door. and that the signs i did had to be approved by a board of somethin or other because the buildin i did the signs on was in the this "special district" and had to be done a certain way and with approved colors...etc etc etc..and that if i woulda went to get the permit in the 1st place i woulda found all this out.....needless to say...i let the owner handle this...and i dont go down there ..p*** on em...and when i left sarsota county in 98 they had sent out letters to all sign people that where workin outa ther houses..to CEASE AND DESIST...their sign making activity....and also if you wanted to pull permits there you needed a "contractor license"....really...cant make a dollar with out some suit sittin in an office wants some of your money...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I get way more than 20%. Sounds like World Wide Sign wants to make sure you sell every lighted sign they quote!
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