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I have used MDO plywood for over 20 years and have never experienced the problems of the last 2 years. I have had 3 signs made in the last year and a half go bad, mostly from delaminating(veneer warping). My methods for preparing wood have never changed. Start with primed MDO , sand and finish with one to two coats of enamel. This has always worked well, so I believe the product must be inferior. Does anyone else have this happen? I just swore off using crezon board for different problems, and now I am confronted with this. I just found out about a customer going elsewhere because of this. Most people don't complain, just go to another company , so I don't know how often this may have happened. What a nightmare if the 30 or so signs I have done for a national company have this happen, let alone the countless jobs done locally.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Hey, David..........I quit MDO five years ago. I use 4MM Dibond for all of the applications requiring a 4'x8' substrate. I also use 3MM and 2MM for the smaller signs. Great stuff. I'll never use MDO again.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Hi David, I've been using MDO for about thirty years and ran into a similar problem a few years ago. In my case it was bubbles under the surface layer and some of them were really big. Most of the sign people in my area got our MDO from the same supplier, and we all put up such a howl about it that he switched from whatever the brand was to Simpson two-step.Quality control way better. Very rarely find bubbles anymore. As you know, since you've used MDO for so long, edge prep is probably the main item for durability. Anyway, see if you can find Simpson in your area, it may solve your problem. Personally, I almost never use anything else, even though all the prep work can be a real pain in the whatsis.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA signpntr@capital.net
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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David, like Pierre, I too quit using MDO (about eight years ago in my case) because it just became too inconsistent. Besides that, there are so many newer products like dibond, alumalite and signboard that don't require nearly as much surface prep and are far more consistent that it surprises me that so many fellow sign makers are still using MDO with any regularity at all. When you add up the time it takes to prepare MDO and the cost of coatings it just isn't cost effective. Sounds like you need to go ahead and make the change away from it like we did. I don't miss the stuff at all.
posted
Back in the mid-sixties, when I first started in this trade, Crezone was made with a Douglas-Fir core, and waterproof glues. Like many other products, substitutions began creeping in, so that the product could be made "cheaper". We now see this product made with Aspen or Poplar cores, and glues that frankly no longer stand up to exterior exposure for any length of time. The cores of the softer woods are far more "absorbent", and are more prone to absorbing moisture. This contributes to the failure of the cheaper glues, and you start seeing the delamination mentioned. It all comes down to "quality control" or rather the lack thereof, and the lack of adequate testing before their product is sold to their customers...you and I.
Initially, the product was a good one. The strengths of the original have now been so compromised by the desire to "sell cheaper", that their reputation is now questionable, and in serious jeopardy.
------------------ Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail kjmlhenry@home.
Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.
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Thanks for the responses. I agree, about the other choices for sign materials. I have used alumilite a lot and like it. Never used dibond, but will look into it, as my supplier does stock it. One problem though. I have one account that orders periodically custom cut 3' circlular logos for their offices in every state. Here is where I have been using MDO,because I can cut it and belt sand any irregularities. They are used to the wood product, so what is a good product substitute? Alumilite does dent and you do have to be careful when installing. Is Dibond good here?
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Dibond would be a better alternative for that application than alumalite. It has a solid core and isn't nearly as susceptible to dents. Lustreboard is another option, though the need for edge sealing would probably rule it out in favor of Dibond.
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Yup, yup, yup.......Brad's right! We regularly cut shapes out of Dibond on our router. Edge sands beautifully and, when lightly sanded, paints like a dream.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I too have noticed "bubbles in the MDO lately.
What is this "Dibond" everyone is talking about? Any suppliers in the midwest? How is the cost compared to MDO????
We have a local lumber yard that carries and assortment of MDO thickness', but I would rather avoid material failures. As stated above most customers just go elsewhare.
------------------ Troy Haas "Metal_Leg" on mIRC
SAM Signs 812-437-5367 Evansville,Indiana
"Chaos, panic, disorder - my work here is done."
Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Troy, there should be a supplier that delivers in Evansville, probably on a weekly or at least bi-weekly basis. (If not, there should be!) Check to see what substrates they carry. Dibond is getting fairly popular, along with Laminators products (Econolite, Alumalite, Omega signboard, Lustreboard, etc.) and FRP (fiberglass reinforced panels) among others, and check their prices. Here, Dibond is about $90/sheet in the 3mm thickness. These materials cost more than MDO, but by the time you figure waiting around to pick it up at the lumber yard, filling, sanding, priming, sanding, painting & recoating, it costs as much or more to use the inferior product. Even for simple real estate signs I use Econolite, and wouldn't consider going back to MDO if it was $15/sheet again. I've heard complaints about the fragile nature of Econolite, but I've used a couple hundred sheets for that kind of application with no problems.
Dibond is a fabulous product. Like Pierre said it is like alumalite ( 2 sheets of aluminum ) with a solid plastic core. Very expensive if I recall to MDO......BUT not much prep as MDO and no surprises down the road.
MDO was a great product when I started 11 years ago, but it's a crap shoot now.
It's like a box of cracker jacks, gauranteed to get a surprise but you never know which one!
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Brad reminded me of Omega board. I just recently used it for a replacement on another project. It is a very good looking board with a high gloss(vinyl) veneer. I paid $60 for half inch thickness. I wonder how you paint it as it only comes in white. The edges are unfinished, which I assume they mean for you to finish with some trim cap, though you could paint them. Looks like Omega, Alumilite, and Dibond are my choices for now.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I wonder ...now that we have this "new" access to the world ...what would happen if we did a post describing all the problems everyone is talking about,copied them and then e-mailed them to Simpson or Georgia Pacific or Boise Cascade.Or better yet all three...maybe even more,wouldn't you think since we all play a roll in the use of their product they would be interested in what we have to say about it?
Just an idea here... maybe we have our own "Consumer Advocacy" group and don't realize it.
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
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David, I have not painted the Omega board myself, but have seen it painted & it is supposed to accept coatings very well. I can tell you though that the edges do need to be sealed, and that there are plastic trimcaps made just for that purpose. I prefer the trimcap made by Laminators which is about 3/8" in depth, or the flexible 1/4" depth cap for going around curves. I use silicone adhesive to attach the trim quickly and it's real durable.
posted
My supplier, Wensco Sign Supplies, is going to hear about it. They replaced one of my bad signs with alumilite. Problem is, so what?, I still have to paint it over and reinstall. That customer is not too happy with me. Bottom line is we have to let our suppliers know, just as we would prefer our customers tell us instead of going elsewhere.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I actually talked to Simpson about their product and the complaints it was generating on this site. Specifically about the product that is prefinished white that was generating complaints a while back, and he acknowledged a problem, but said they changed the application process, and fixed the problem. Also asked how to finish the pre-primed MDO. Face doesn't need to be sanded, sand, fill & prime edges, apply two coats of enamel. I told him about this site so they may be watching the post, but there are a lot of manufacturers of MDO. Simpson seems to be the best. I still like MDO, it's affordable, you can route it, paint it any color. Haven't really had the problems others have had.
------------------ Robert Thomas Creative Signs In Beautiful Naples, Fl.
Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I never use MDO infavor of aluminum or one of the laminated products. Just heard that Laminators has come out with a new product, Di-Lite which is similar to Dibond and supposedly accepts enamels better. The industry is moving that way.
------------------ Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio Greeley, Colorado, USA kent@smithsignstudio.com
Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just a slight bend in topics if I may,though I don't have anything to ad about MDO. David Wright brought out an exceptionally important point ! I have heard so many people say "done it this way for years and nobody brings it back or complains" Some of us are smart enough to know that MOST customers won't take the time to complain, instead they will just go somewhere else next time. I have also noticed the people who make these statements are usually not the ones complaining of being too busy to do anything but work ! Just another observation ! Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
posted
Roger makes a good observation and hopefully no one will be offended. There are new products and methods being introduced all the time that are better than old materials and ways, and every person wanting to advance in the business should try to keep up. Not to suggest that change for the sake of change itself is good, or that old ways are somehow inferior at any given time, but likewise, doing things just because "that's the way we have always done it" isn't prudent either. I personally see MDO as being a substrate of the past.
posted
Well I dont use that much MDO, I too would rather use Dibond or something like that. There are occaisions when MDO is a good fit though. I switched suppliers this year to a company whos products are better in my opinion. One of them is the Simpson MDO... good stuff. No grain showing, no delaminating, and the single sided boards are even covered with the "Simpson backer" that makes it easy to coat out and prevents warping.
------------------ Brian Stoddard Expressions Signs A few puddles east of Seattle
Posts: 790 | From: Redmond, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well, I have also noticed that SOME MDO has patches of delamination, but there are PLENTY of pieces that don't. I STILL HAND PICK my material at the lumber yard, and I find pretty good stuff.
My guy is also pretty darned inexpensive with 1/2 inch SF being 24.95 and DF 3/8 at 21.95. I would rather prime and paint any day, than have material eat profit from labor.
MHO, Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 Signs of Excellence!!!
Posts: 2500 | From: Clinton, AR USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sorry,guys, I'm one of the old traditionalists when it comes to MDO as the substrate of choice, at least most of the time. Have been using FiberBrite occasionally for the smaller stuff. On the other hand, I am trying to cut back on my work, getting away from the signs altogether, and limiting my "practice" to boats and trucks. The reason being that I'm getting on in years, drawing a retirement from my other job, and doing the SocSec bit. In other words , the pressure to hustle just isn't there anymore. Neither is "advancing" or keeping up with change. If I were more interested in prolonging my sign career I'd probably look more closely at some of these other substrates.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA signpntr@capital.net
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
So what do you guys suggest when the customer wants to have their sign made out of a single board that's double sided, that needs the thickness of MDO for strength?
Seems to me that Dibond, Alumilite etc. all require some kind of backer for strength for a 4x8 size, if the install is NOT to go against a building, and therefore, if the customer wanted double sided, you'd be making two of them.
Are my assumptions correct?
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Donna, I would use either Omega signboard, Lustreboard, Alumalite, Komacel or thicker Dibond. I have also on occasion made DF signs with two pieces of Econolite over a welded aluminum 1" tube frame. One of these products is great for any imaginable MDO use.
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