posted
Okay, okay, calm down everybody (including the two new threads relating to this that I see have started on this forum).
First of all, I'm supposed to be the paranoid one around here. As you can see (if you care), I have adjusted my profile showing my real name (Sam Nitzberg) and e-mail address. For those of you playing, kram is my middle name backwards, and hence, krammas. I am not any type of Signworld plant, trying to stir up trouble. I don't know if there were two shooters in the grassy knoll...
I was not out to cause any pain or trouble or anything. My original and second posts are to be taken at face value: I really am trying to figure out what I should do!
For more clarity: I do not have 100K just laying around. I will need to get a loan, SBA or otherwise, to start this venture. I have about the 40K needed to get the other 80K required to buy into Signworld plus furnishings, extra capital, etc. It's a major step.
Secondly: I visited a local Signworld shop yesterday, one who's been in business 6 years and doing well. Yes, he's mostly doing vinyl, but some art comes in every so often, he employs 5 people, it generally looked good. And he still says the initial money was well spent. And to me it seems like learning CorelDraw, etc., and applying vinyl really does look like something just about anyone with a sense of detail and a degree of patience can do. As I said before, I know my way around computers. Mike Pipes' points are well-taken, and that's the conundrum.
My current job sucks big-time, though it pays well. Any new endeavor will involve a period of little or no personal income (luckily my wife works too), so going totally on my own is scary, as opposed to being part of a network, which I may overpay for, and which guarantees me nothing. Round and around we go.
Signworld (and another similar company called SignBiz), along with their tech support, promises a network of shops all there to help if you have questions or problems. How quickly could I reasonably expect answers to my real-world questions on this or any other forum if I don't join Signworld? They also promise discounts on supplies. Isn't that, in time, worth it?
I may sound like I'm sold on Signworld, but I really am looking for other input.
Anyway, you all are for sure the most entertaining lot I've seen for a while, and will definitely keep in touch (unless, in time, I decide that signmaking isn't for me at all). No matter what I decide, I'll post that decision here.
posted
Welcome aboard Sam. I never doubted you for a minute.
The best advice I ever got was to only listen to those that were doing what I wanted to do and/or had the lifestyle I wanted. We've been in this business since 1975 and due to Letterheads and this website, we have had an opportunity to visit many shops all over Canada and the US.
I've met very talanted artists that are starving and some with no layout skills at all that are doing very well financially. We've never been in any franchise shops yet, so I have no firsthand knowledge how they do.
I am self taught. When we first started nobody would allow you near their signshop. Sign mags were my only window into the sign trade. Letterheads was a real boost to my learning curve. For the first time I was able to pick the brains of those who were doing what I wanted to do. I believe this on-line Letterhead Meet we have going here has to be a great asset for getting answers fast.
When I was young, making money was not as important as the pat on the back and personal satisfaction of doing this business. As time went on and our responsibilities and family grew, it became very clear that making money was very important. There are some Letterheads out there that are actually making great signs and enjoying a wonderful lifestyle at the same time.
If anyone is interested in talking with a Letterhead that runs a one person sign biz and takes home in excess of 100 grand a year, I suggest you look at this link. I've spent time with Chip and his wife. This is a guy you can trust to talk with if you want to do what he has done.
posted
Hi, Sam-- To answer your question about support from this forum, I think you would have a hard time finding a better bunch of people that could help regardless of whatever problem you might toss out. Heaven knows, they have helped me out any number of times, and I'm only on visitor status. If no one has an answer for you, someone darn sure knows which direction to send you for an answer. As far as hooking up with Signworld or whoever, that's a decision only you can make. Good luck, whatever you decide.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something...... http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
posted
Welcome aboard. Creative people are ALWAYS suspicious. I knew all along you weren't a ringer from Signworld. You're a ringer from SignPro, right?
heh
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Keep your current job and pick up the hardware/software you need to get going.
Like I said before, you can keep the job, as lousy as it is you can still use it to bring in a steady income just like they're using you to make them money.
Work from home, keep your overhead low, start getting the word out, build your clientele BEFORE you get a shop.
When your home-based business becomes something you can no longer handle without dumping the regular job and going full time, you'll be good and ready for it. By this time you can learn the essential design/layout skills that will set your work apart from the rest.
Letterheads are happy to help out, whether it's a "visitor" like me or a "resident", the advice is just as sound and timely. You can ask anything here.. whether it's a computer problem, if the plotter is makin a funky noise, how do you do a certain trick with software, or if you need help on a layout or choosing fonts, you will get an answer. It doesn't matter what your question is, somebody here has had the same problem or knows someone who has and can help find a solution.
I think the folks selling the franchises are kinda like people selling self-help books. They tell you everything you already know but affirm it, and you still have to work at it to make the idea fly.
I say save your money, work from home and keep that old nasty job for a while. This is how I got started, making decals as a hobby then a buddy says "Duh, Mike, why arent you selling these??".. Genious.. I started selling small stupid decals, now I dont touch those anymore but instead sell custom graphics kits for anything that rolls or floats.
By the way, I got into it for $600, the cost of my first Roland plotter. I already had the computer, I was using AutoCAD at the time which my old engineering firm bought me so I could work from home and it just so happened that AutoCAD could drive that $600 Roland plotter directly via CAD plotter drivers.
I left a high paying job too.. hey, it was even an easy job, but it simply got too boring for me at times.. I couldnt take it. Now I still do a little work for them on occassion under an "as-needed" contract basis and I use them to get free trips back to St Louis to see my family.
If you want it bad enough, you can make it work. Your gains will reflect your efforts and I dont think it matters if you go franshise or not.
I'm just saying, hang onto your money and invest in yourself, not a franchise. They cannot guarantee you customers. Just think.. you can save that money and use it to live on for a while, or even use it for air compressors, spray guns, tools, carving tools, redwood, cedar, sign posts, SignFoam and other HDU's, airbrushes, paints, brushes, rollers... hey even get a CNC Router! man there's so much to do it's hard to pick one!
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Sam, I think you need to hear from some franchise type shops at this point for a fair comparison.
The one man type shop is simply run differently with a different purpose in mind. Big money is not normally the main objective here. (although nice!) Success comes in many forms. Having self fulfillment and seeing work done right I'd say is #1 for most on this board.
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Sam Welcome aboard! I am with Donna on this one as Big money doesn't bring Big Happiness.
The best reward you'll get is the look in the customers eyes with a facial grin from ear to ear. Then you'll know that that pat on the back is all for you!
Good Luck! Save some of those goose eggs for a rainy day and don't spend it all now in hopes of your dream!
------------------ Raven/2001 Airbrushed by Raven Lower Sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Sam, First let me apologize for being a smart *ss in my earlier replies. Like you have heard over and over in these replies...there are many questions we all want and need help on from time to time and whether you are a visitor or a resident, the forum here is always eager to give you their point of view (sometimes so many different views that you remain indecisive). I TOTALLY agree with what Mike Pipes says as well as many others. You have the business sense but, if you want a rewarding career in the sign trade, go it alone, maybe out of your home and keep your employment (your guaranteed check/cheque) until you feel comfortable. I still obtain my employment with my jerkoff* I mean my boss as I start my home based business rollin'. I got a Summa vinyl cutter 24" that I am falling in love with, Corel 9 program and really CRAPPY sign software for my home called OMEGA CUT PRO (no not Gerber Omega) I think it's also called SIGN-DEX and, no, I don't think anyone else uses it here....if so anyone, let me know, eh? I work on Flexi and Corel at my place of employment and have worked extensively on Gerber Graphix Advantage as well as a program called SIGNUS in Cali. in the past. My CRAPPY software costed me $600 I believe and my AWESOME Summa cutter costed $2500 or so. Weeks before I made my purchase, I was about to get a loan and invest $25,000+ in Gerber and supplies and such. I sure am glad the banks declined me!LOL Anyway, like you heard before, you can do the quikky stikky one day sign shop thingy or be amonst THE FEW, THE PROUD, THE PASSIONATE. My apologies again and GOOD LUCK!
------------------ Corey Wine signCONCEPTS Airdrie, Alberta, Canada The ex-Californian Canadian signconcepts1@home.com
"I cooked a meatloaf recipe that I downloaded off of the internet. A day later, I got a stomach VIRUS....Coincidence?"
posted
Sam, read and reread Mikes post! I looked at the Signworld website, sounds like a huge wad of cash for what they are offering. Do you really want a sign shop that dosent use "paint or chemicals"? ...Is there really such a thing? If you really want to be in this business, start small with little overhead, and see how it goes. I jumped in with both feet and now wish i had started smaller. Hindsight!! As far as the training they are offering, the best training is trial and error. And this BB of course! Or you can send me the $132,000 , i will train you for a year, and its all yours.
Like others have suggested, you might be better off doing more research and trying it on you own for awhile.
Visit some shops in your area, find out what kind of demand there is, are they busy? Do they do alot of work in other areas? I would hate to see you make a huge investment and have a shop sitting idle because of no work.
I bought my plotter and software in April for $5000 and it's already paid for itself.
Good Luck whatever you decide, and let us know how you are doing
MC
------------------ Mike Clayton MC Graphics Barnegat, NJ http://www.visualnoise.com/mcg/ mike@visualnoise.com
"Youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery!"
Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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I did not want to take place in this thread but enjoyed reading it for the last few days, arn't these people amazing!. They took you to the max on your conviction and also questioned their own reasons for being.
I love this board. ( your all sick, and thats what I love about 'ya )
I started from scratch (again) just a few months ago....bought a new cx24 Roland ($3,500), found out later that I could have gotten a re-furbished one for $1,200. ( Mike makes many a good point ).
Already had Adobe Ill. and Photoshop and Go live...blah blah plus full corel. I also have 12 years experience in the trade. You brush heads ...I have afull set of "sticks with hair on them", those damn Russian squirells!
To end this drawn out blah, blah....It was nice that you introduced yourself to the board and you can't help but notice how nice these people are.
P.S. I was once somebodies "boy", for three months. I knew more than he did and made him a lot of cash...I was abused and not respected...quit and started my own business. I have him to thank or curse for getting me into this trade...craft or art field.
Good luck Mark
------------------ Mark Fuller Fuller Signs Keswick, Ontario CANADA
posted
Have you considered buying an established shop...in a location you would like...get the training from the owners...they are the best teachers. You would have the shop and the customer base...that is a big part.
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote:Yes, he's mostly doing vinyl, but some art comes in every so often
May sound crazy, but I always thought "art" should be coming OUT of a shop, not IN. There doesn't have to be a separation in "vinyl" and "art" either.
quote:to me it seems like learning CorelDraw, etc., and applying vinyl really does look like something just about anyone with a sense of detail and a degree of patience can do.
Yes, you are right, anyone can type in words, and spit out vinyl.
As to your dilemma, I can only interject that you go with your guts. You have a better grasp of your goals, what you are capable of, and what you are willing to invest of yourself. The risks are big even for those with experience, so your road won't be paved.
The experience I gained working for a creative shop before going solo, only go up in value every day. I thank Joe Rees for defining the sign business for me at such a high level.
Owning the equipment is such a teeny portion of truly functioning well and gaining satisfaction in this trade.
Let me suggest that if you keep your business sense in check, but let your creative spirit guide you, not only will it serve as a driving force, but it may make you a better sign shop!
Good Luck to you! Janette
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
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