posted
Had a customer call me and ask me if I would mind applying a decal that she had bought for her son over the internet. It was a stripe for the new mustangs. One piece goes in the center of the hood, in a concave surface, and the other two pieces are long stripes that goe basically the length of the hood. It was premium 3m vinyl, and fit perfectly in the spots on the car. I applied the larger piece first, about18" wide by 26" long. I used rapid tac to apply wet,got it lined up, starting squeegying, this all went fine. I wet the liner before I pulled it off,but lo and behold,just like the Don Ho song, Tiny Bubbles! Lots of them. Very small pin head type bubbles. I have applied lots and lots of vinyl, and almost never have a bubble problem. This is the first time I have used 3m vinyl, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it. I am hoping after a couple of days the vinyl will settle out, and most or all of the bubbles will disappear. If not, I may have to reimburse the customer for the cost of the decal, which was 75.00 bucks. Her husband is a good customer for me, and uses me almost exclusively. Do you reckon these things will disappear, or do I need to go ahead and get ready to pay? Scratching me head on this one for sure.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Signs&Grafix 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
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Ammonia?? Boy, that's a new one on me. How long did you wait between the ammonia and applying the applique?
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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I have never used ammonia as a "cleaning agent" prior to applying vinyl but I DO remember hearing that products like Windex, which contain ammonia, are a definite no-no. Especially on glass. Something to do with ammonia adversely affecting the adhesive of the vinyl. I'd be interested in hearing more on this topic, either for or against the use of an ammonia based product.
I just had a thought....Since this was an aftermarket stripe (I'm assuming).. was the hood recently re-painted?
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
[This message has been edited by Dave Grundy (edited July 14, 2000).]
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John,reading your post I can see you did not follow instructions much at all( I'm not giging ya,just helpin ) The first thing is "clean only with Rapid Tac and Grocery store CHEAP paper towells" (I don't own stock in them,I just want you to use what works best). If you get yourself a copy of 3-m data sheet you will see that ammonia will cause you to loose your product warrenty,they are dead serious about that one ! The other thing you did wrong was "using a solvent cleaner that leaves a residue" these solvents are tempermental and often the user dosn't end up using them correctly resulting in a contaminated surfase, ( again I speak with many years of hands on experiance ). Try applying the next job after reading instructions, I bet you will be pleasently surprised ! Oh yea and forgive my creative spelling ! Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
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The wax remover I used was the same one I have used for a long time before painting and vinyl. I dab a little on a rag and give it a quick rub. I've learned thru trial and error how much to use. I also meant to say I used windex with ammonia. I never use straight ammonia, and I did give it a quick shot of rapid tac with paper towel before applying. I have used this procedure before with other vinyl brands with no problem. This is the first time I have ever used 3m vinyl. I use Endura gloss, and Ameribans premium and have never had this problem. I waited about 15 minutes after cleaning to apply the stripe, and the hood is new. It's a 2000 mustang. All of the bubbles are in the center part and are very, very small. I know several painters that use windex with ammonia to clean surfaces, and they also use it when applying vinyl. I use alot of rapid tac Roger, and after this, I might give your prep a try too. I did something wrong, but it had to be something with the 3m vinyl also, as I stated, I have used this procedure with other vinyls before with no failures. Ah heck, live and learn you know.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Signs&Grafix 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
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Hiya John, I've heard the same as the others. Ammonia is a definite no. Normally, they're caused by lack of pressure on the squeegee when applying the graphic wet. I think you'll get lucky. Give it about a week though. If not, start checking with the stripe suppliers to find a replacement set of graphics. Personally, I'd rather not refund the money, I'd replace 'em. Havin' fun, Checkers
------------------ a.k.a. Brian Born Soon to be closed Signs Now Mechanicsburg, Pa. members.home.net/sign-it/ This isn't Burger King, you can't have it your way.
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John, I know you truly beleive the way you have done in the past is ok,but then I truly beleive you got lucky. I started painting cars in the 60's (for a living in shops) I know I have been lucky a lot of times,and I remember the times when I wasn't so lucky. You can do something wrong a long time before it finally catches up to you ! tag ! yer it this time ! Just have to grin and bear it and "remember how much it cost ya" Hope you try the Rapid Prep, you'll love it. any more problems or questions in the future, 800-360-7751 Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
posted
If it's a 2000 mustang, the paint just might be fresh enough that it hasnt totally cured, which means you'll face the "gassing-out" problem caused by gas vapors escaping the paint and causing bubbles to form in the vinyl. I dont know how long those vehicles sit before they are sent to dealers, or if the cure time on the paints is long, but it could happen.. who knows..
I also use EnduraGloss vinyls and never have a problem like that, then again 90% of my installations are done completely dry. I havent noticed any difficulties with 3M films though.
There may have also been bubbles between the vinyl and the transfer tape. If there are bubbles in there it's impossible to do a bubble-free application.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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i find i have better results on a decal that size, apply it dry. with a masking tape hinge, working from the center out.
less stuff to squeegee out.
application fluids have their place on a large decal.
just my opinion for what the heck that is worth! LOL
what works for you buddy,
mark (i actually played music for money tonight) fair
a little history, John Deaton, as well as being one heck of a sign artist is also a great cartoonist!!!, on top of all that, John is also one bad ass keyboard player!!
its a little off topic...but hes right....but #1....as an auto paint supplier,i cringe whenever somebody says they're using wax and grease remover....no matter what brand...hell i admit even my brand is GARBAGE....the stuff will cause you waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy more headaches than help,i don't care how long you've ben using it.....if you do not wash the area you used it on extremely well AFTER you use it ...it leaves a film on the surface EVERY TIME...not sometimes,everytime....and you will have paint failures,fisheyes,vinyl failures you name it from using it...if you havent u to this point,like roger said,youve been lucky...whick i doubt....if you've been doing it long enuff you had some type of prob be it adhesion,dieback etc you can attribute to this stuff and you just assumed it was something else....it does sound like Roger's rpid prep maybe wht every one should use and no,i dont know him,i've never even seen a bottle of the stuff...just basing that opinion on what i've read here and what i know about wax and grease removers....and the hooray for roger was for saying that yes,yo can ge away wit it so long bt then TAG.......
ok now that i've run off at the head here...what i honestly believe johns prob with this kit is is this.....that kit has prob ben cut,masked and sitting in a hot warehouse since last Oct....all the transfer wasn't on there like it looked,bigo bubbles as a result....tat would be my guess..that paint is waaaay old enuf to have stopped outgassing
gavin
ps roger email,i mught be interested in carrying rapid prep
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Zman Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Periodically we use Liquid Sandpaper instead of wax remover for prepping a surface. Seems to strip everything off better than just the removers. Roger, what do you think of this process?
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6717 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Having been involved in the film industry since day 1 (literally), I've installed many hundreds of large appliques. There are a number of prep methods that work. If your semi tractor trailer work goes down smoothly and stays in place for years, who's to say your prep methods are second rate? I use a couple of your products, Roger, and they perform as advertised. I also use three or four other methods that work just as well and have for years. Every product has its place with varying success. There's no doubt in my mind that ammonia is not a proper prep medium. I agree with Mark that, whenever possible, dry mount is the way to go. If the circumstances call for a RapidTac product......go for it. Until joining this board I hadn't heard of RapidTac. The girls bought some of your remover and are very happy with it. They even ordered two gallons of it in. But there are always alternatives that have worked for lots of us oldtimers for many years with complete success. Definitely NOT a flame.......just reality. :^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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Gavin...Are you saying that reputable companies such as CIL, R-M and DuPont, who manufacture excellent paint products for the automotive trade, are also marketing products like prep-sol and Pre-Kleano, which are intended for final prep before painting, that are ,in your opinion "GARBAGE" and leaves a film on the surface "EVERY TIME"? Or are you talking about those wax and grease removers that you spray on and wash off with a hose?
I know that the prep-sol type of wax and silicone removers specifically say to apply and then wipe dry with a frequently replaced clean dry cloth and that most people, who don't know any better will ignore that and just smear the contaminates around with a dirty damp rag.
Even Rapid-Prep must be used in this manner. The instructions say "Spray on surface (only 3 or 4 ft. diameter at a time). Wait 30 secs. Now wipe clean with a paper towel.(Not commercial paper towel or cloth rag). REPEAT steps 1 and 2 until area is clean and ready for paint or adhesives."
I wonder how many folks ignore the instructions on Rapid-Prep too and end up complaining that it too leaves a residue because they didn't follow the instructions?
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
posted
Ammonia was the culprit (IMHO). We use a couple of drops of Dawn in a quart spray bottle and have never had a problem in 13 years of applications. If you use this method and there are bubbles, you merely grab the stiffest squeegee you can find, place your liner, slick side up, on the bubbly area and flick out the bubbles using the tip of the squeegee and as fast a motion as you can. Lightning fast and a light touch will cause all the bubbles to "race" right out of the vinyl toward an edge. It's worked every time for us but as I said....it's just my opinion.
------------------ Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B 650-588-0490 fontking1a@aol.com
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Dave,I used to be an automotive painter too and have used all the wax and grease removers. The film that they ALL seem to leave never really bothered me when I was doing automotive paint work. First of all, it really wasn't as noticible on a sanded surface as it is on a glossy surface, secondly, being the dinosaur that I am, most of the repair work done back then was laquer. When I started lettring I began to notice the "film" that the waz and grease removers left, no matter how many times I would change cloths or paper towels. Some of them were worse than others. Pre-cleano stands out in my mind as being real bad-oily. I switched over to 3812 Dupont reducer and used it for years. I followed up with a wipe of alcohol. Since I recently switched to Rapid Prep I have been very happy. If it leaves a residue, it's like the residue that 3812 leaves and it's not oily. The only problem with Rapid Prep is that it cleans SO GOOD you go through A LOT of paper towels
John, I'm no expert on vinyl applications, but I have noticed the bubble problem with 3M stuff too. Some of their transfer tape is more aggressive than other brands. I did a fleet of trucks last year and had the same problem. The best results came from dry application, wetting the tranfer with Rapid Tac HEAVILY, waiting a few minutes, pulling the tape off as close to 180 as possible. Definately different stuff.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hmmmmmmm... a few different opinions here for sure. It may be in the way I prep for sure, but I reiterate, this has never happened before. I just redid my shop truck with the same process, and not one bubble or mishap, and three layers of vinyl. I really don't like installing vinyl that I haven't used before or that I didn't cut, but this is a good customer so I thought I'd go ahead and do it. I was hesitant to apply dry due to the concave surface, and this kit has to fit perfectly within the area it goes. I've only been doing vinyl for less than two years,after painting for 15 years, so I'm learning all the way, but I am learning and I take advice and help anytime I can. I appreciate y'alls replys here and thanks for the help.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Signs&Grafix 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
posted
Of course I'm not going to agree with all of you( I'm really into these Rapid Tac products, he,he ). As for gettin a surfase clean, when I had my own shop I insisted on cleaning the car with t.s.p. even before we sanded or did any body repairs,then after repairs and sanding I washed it down with 3812 or pre-cleno,prep-sol, whatever, using the 2-clean rag method. I don't remember one car that didn't have some "fish eye" somewhere when I started painting. Now I would feel very confident with Rapid Prep, thats what its all about"confidence" ! Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
While I don't agree with your prep either, I am not sure it was the problem. You have used this procedure with no problems(and MAYBE you have just been lucky all these years).
I think you need to check your squeegee also. If you can feel any roughness at all on the edge, that is your problem. I have found that especially with 3M vinyl the squeegee needs to be sharp and smooth(no matter how you prep). You might look to see if the bubbles show a pattern. Any place that does not receive enough pressure will result in lines of tiny bubbles.
If it's as hot over there as it is on this side of the state, have them park the car in the sunlight for a few days. Maybe they will go away(hope hope)
------------------ Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.
Posts: 2275 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I probably have been lucky Don. After hearing all the comments here, I plan to change the way I prep. I'll probably give Rapid Prep a try, and see how it goes. I use golden squeeges from Ameriban, and keep a good check on the edges. But still, that could have had something to do with it, pressure,etc. Like I said, this material was something I wasn't familiar with, and I should have checked the background on it before installing. The customer hasn't called to gripe any yet, so maybe they(bubbles)went away. If not I'll have to make good. All in a days work. Again, thanks to everyone.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Signs&Grafix 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
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Dave....yes i am suugesting that...not just those brands,but i'm also suggesting that the brand i sell is garbage...and i depend on that to earn a living...
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Zman Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
This topic has been covered pretty well.. I just want to add what I've learned thru the years on the subject of wax and grease removel and final prepping a surface to be painted. Just plain old minral spirits will remove the wax buildup on a car. Most of your wax and grease removers are at least 90% mineral spirits with some toulene or xylene or both added. Before I'm ready to paint. I'll wash the surface with some dawn and water.. Dawn will cut both grease and dirt and will remove the subborn oils that your fingers leave behind. Nothing else I've tried, and I am a dinasour as well, seems to work as well as plain old Dawn for this. Then as a final wash, I use Naptha. I got this tip years ago from a Navy A&P tech. I do this for decal applications as well... never a fish-eye and no bubbles under the decal..
Naptha, unlike 3812, is mild even to use on base coats and over my striping enamels, (which I use exclusively House of Kolor urethane striping enamels) and doesn't seem to leave a film residue..
I've saved a lot of $'s on solvents by getting mineral spirits and Naptha at the hardware store instead of the the jobber..
But all this is prolly about to change as I'm about the experience Rapid Prep products, (thanks Roger) which I've heard nothing but good about in this and other forums..
posted
Ross..I only have the sample of RapidPrep that Roger sent me. Neither ND or Matrix carry it. I have mentioned it to them though.
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
posted
Another "specific" that we used for 20 years is Ditzler DX440. It works too when used properly. Prep'd for a zillion decals with that stuff and none of them failed.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
in the past I ran into a problem just like this with vinyl onto premasked lexan leaving bubbles and it was driving me nuts! why one sign face would bubble one day but the next the other would not, lexan suppler told me that after cutting remove the masking and let it sit for a day or so to gas out vapers and it works!!!!also last summer when my shop truck door was crashed into and being repainted my body shop that told me to wait 4 to 6 weeks before applying vinyl for the very same thing "gassing out" vapers most of my jobs if its very dirty I will first clean it with a mild mix of water and simple green then good ol rap-it-tac then apply with rap-it-tac let dry then spray transfer tape with rap-it-tac to soffen the tacyness of the transfer tape and what few bubbles are gone after a few sunny days
------------------
Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Arron,you scare me using that "simple green" you could be in a mess months down the road. And to ad to what has been discused in this thread, Rapid Prep is (to my knowledge) the only wash solvent that works as well without the threat of health hazards ! Now watch me get in trouble with that statement ! Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
I have had problems myself at times with very very small bubbles, but I have always put that down to application tape or an uneven squeegee....some cast vinyls are thinner than others, and are harder to apply, we use a transparent application tape with a slight structure in it, and at times you see this structure in the vinyl, I avoid that by using another tape for the first layer then trans for the rest, but thats all dry and not wet like in John's case...
Roger I liked the Rapid Prep you sent here..I also got you to send samples to R&D our largest sign supplier, who at the begining of the year where bought by Spandex which is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Gerber, have you haerd if they where interested in stocking your products? I use a product called H-98 here a precleaner for vinyl sold by a Swedish chemical company, but also bottled and sold by 3M with a different name or prod number, likewise they do a H-99 vinyl remover that makes vinyl bubble up like paint stripper, but only works on 3M vinyls, and has softened paint on semis...is this similar to your raid remover?
If you have not established a dealer here in Scandinavia, you could let me know the shipping costs by sea of rapid-tac, rapid prep and rapid remover a couple of gallons of each?
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Roger.......DX440 is definitely not "better than" yours........just "different than". It's a specific for removing the worst tar & grease imagineable....."Cosmoline"!! I stubled on it 25 years ago when I had a shipment of M1 Garands show up still in the government wrappers and packed in cosmoline. It totally removes the worst road tar and when cut 40%mediaum and 60% water it also removes dirt at the same time. Your schtuff works better for decal and striping work, but 440 works too. Just more caustic and smelly. If RapidTac was handy I'd probably use it first. If the rig had a load of cured road tar on it I'd use 440. My .02 :^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I have always told my customers that if there are any bubbles in their copy just be sure to set them in the sun for a couple of days and the heat will help shrink them out. No one has yet to bring something back to let me fix it. I have always used 3M vinyl. I have also been told not to get ammonia near the job when we are applying it, because it will maek bubbles. This is my experiance with it for the past 8 years.
------------------ Air, Land & Water Graphics in Sublette, KS
Posts: 11 | From: sublette, ks usa | Registered: Jun 2000
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