posted
well, i'm still plugging away at my lettering. i don't have much trouble making nice looking letters... but i DO have trouble laying the paint down in one coat. any and all suggestions are welcome. here's what i'm doing (today).
1-shot imitation gold (mustard) on blue coroplast. the plast was coated last night with one coat of frog juice clear, brushed on with a foam brush straight outta da can. i thinned the gold paint using 1-shot hi-temp reducer (we dont usually get weather warm enough here in SF to need the hi-temp!).
same set-up with robin egg blue 1-shot on orange corroplast, frogged, etc.
i tried a couple of different quills. i got the paint as thick as i could without the brush sticking to the side of the paper cup. if it was thin enough to slide over the frog juice then i had to go back with a second coat. (wet on wet).
am i missing something? is it the color (is there a better color for a beginner to learn with)? the substrate? the frog juice undercoat? or is it just me?
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hi, Scooter-- Some of the colors are 2-coaters going in, lemon yellow being about the worst offender. I have found that adding a few cc's of Penetrol to about a half ounce of paint along with your hi-temp reducer will increase coverage by quite a bit. There are those who will argue against this, saying additives weaken the paints durability. I don't agree, and this is close to forty years of hand-lettering speaking. I've had ten year old trucks out there that still look pretty good, so draw your own conclusions. Also, for what it is worth, mix your paint with the penetrol and add reducer to a single cup 'til you get a good brushing consistency, put another cup of reducer nearby, so you can add a little as you need it. As you can tell, I am not a big fan of palletting every brushful of paint on paper-- that works well when striping, but I think it is a waste of time when lettering. One last thing-- it pays to slosh your brush out in that cup of reducer every once in a while-'cause it will tend to get sticky after a while. One more "last thing." I don't recommend putting that mixed paint back in the original can, I think this is where additives can do a number on durability, and also, Penetrol will tend to make the paint "gel-up" in the can. In other words, don't add penetrol 'til you are ready to letter. Just my .02
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Hi, Scooter-- I don't think Edge is the same animal at all. I have never used it, so I can't say how well it works. I have heard that it has fallen out of favor in some circles, but I don't know why.The main reason I use Penetrol is that I find that the paint flows or strokes better, doesn't set up as fast, and gives you a bigger "window" to form your letters. It is not a cure-all by any stretch, and some of your colors will still need two coats to get good coverage. The one item I omitted earlier is this-- lettering paint requires a lot of stirring, especially a new can. If it looks oily on your stir stick, you're not there yet. Good luck in your endeavors, and if I can be of more help, post here or e-mail me direct.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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ya got ta stir it up real good...the best of the paint is in the bottom of the can.i keep paint sticks, cut in half lenght wize then half the length....get 4 stir sticks from one paint stirer. when you put you paint in the cup(i use a plastic 3 divided plates )put the paint you get from the bottom of the can. also with white paint to make it cover better add some aluminum paint to it(it will make the white sorta gray, but then youve added to much alum.)some guys will add dark blue.....magenta..you add white and it will cover better....penatrol...i use in cold weather...makes the paint flow better.ive also thinned one shot with laqure thinner and acrylic enamel thinner...but this takes practice.....lemon yellow...try some alum in it or add some chrome yellow..will change color but will cover better. oh and corplaste is the worst stuff to practice on.....get some aluminum sheets, or old car door or hood....when you do something on it, wipe it off and start all over... or an old sliding glass door....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited July 03, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hi, All Scooter- I would have to argue against Joe's idea of using lacquer thinner in lettering enamel. The two are not designed to be used together and are basically not compatible. This is not the first time I've heard of them being used together, especially in airbrush work, but, I would wonder a lot about durability. It may work, but I wont try it. There are a couple of other thoughts that come to mind while on this subject. One is the use of "Smoothie" in lettering paint to eliminate fish-eyes. My feeling on this is that if you are getting fish-eyes, then your surface isn't clean enough-- especially true with vehicle work. Never assume a vehicle hasn't been waxed sometime along the way-- clean it as tho' it was waxed yesterday. The only time I use "Smoothie" is to add one or two drops to the reducer in the separate can when I do the rare striping job. This is also the only time I pallette on paper. Another thought is, I wonder about the necessity of adding hardener to One-Shot. This stuff is a fairly recent addition to the mix, and I frankly don't see the need for it. Please don't think that I think of myself as a paint guru-- far from it. I don't know beans about the urethanes, and have never used them. I do know, tho', what has worked very well for me, and, for a very long time.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Bill...a tad bit off the subject here,but my exp is in the urethane end...and i for one cannot fathom why anyone would not want to use it...it adds a volume of solids and increases durability by making the paint more structurally integral,gives it more UV and abrasion resistance and cuts drying/curing time by leaps and bounds... many enamels just because of their nature never completely "100%" cure.Everyone is familiar with the fact that sometimes recoating one shot causes it to cannibalize itself or if you get a mess up,sometimes 2-3days to dry so you can sand it and recoat it..using the hardener eliminates that problem...it may also help coverage problems to a degree....the millage thickness in automotive paint is absolutely affected by the amount of isocyanate which in turn causes a buncha boring chemical crapola...i can't say thatits gonna help for certain in 1shot's case,that would be a question for Kevin Ledbetter.....remember i'm not suggesting that it will solve that prob and all of a sudden lemon yellow is gonna cover in one coat,but it certainly isn't gonna hurt. More i think about that one i dont see it affecting coverage of individual lettering,but in covering panels or backrounds perhaps yes....like i said Kevin is going to have to be the one to answer that one,i'm just going on theory.
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Scooter, One Shot colors that cover well are black, imitation gold, aqua, process blue, medium gray and tan. The worst are primrose yellow, rubine red, reflex blue and emerald green. The rest are kinda in between.
Gavin, there are a number of reasons for not using the hardner. One , it contains isocyanates, two it's pure hell to work with when it's hot, three it murders brushes and I already use some of the worst shedders known to man Cosmos and Luco
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hi, All, again-- Scooter- you are sure getting a lot to digest, and all in one day, too. Gavin - thanx for your input on the urethanes; it is just that I am not familiar with them, and at this late stage of my painting career I'd rather stick with what I know best. Also, being a one-man shop with limited space, most of that space is already taken up with my usual stock to say nothing of the vinyl. The vinyl end of things was a very late development and just learning the little bit I know about computers was a real accomplishment. Well, it was too. After all, I am well on the far side of sixty. George called it right on what covers and what doesn't. Joe did the same with the idea of the best paint being in the bottom of the can-- the settling aspect-- and that is why I don't care for the notion about a screw in the cap. How do you tell if it is stirred up enough? OK folks, it is getting late, I am making typing mistakes all over the place, and I need my beauty sleep-- tho' there is no hope for beauty. 'nite all.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Guys...not knocking anybody for not using the hardener,believe me...i understand all points made,just generalizing here
George...i know you said you clear 1shot all the time,you do it with or without hardener in it? just curious,know you said you've been doing it a long time
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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bill in my post ...i did say about the laqure thiner in one shot.."takes some time to learn to do this and not make a mess" only time i use it when i have a posabilty on the letterin paint not biting in to the surface iam painting on. yes it will not last as long...but it makes the paint really bite....a/e reducer is a lot less volitile and will help when you have fish eyes....(ex. letterin a race car that they painted with fish-eye eliminator in the paint) also ive used DUPONT laqure retarder...in one shot...works real good in cold weather...as for fish eye eliminator....XXXXXXXXXX bad stuff....never buy it or keep it around your paint....once you spray paint with that stuff in it..you will have to use it ...in that garage every time you paint. nasty stuff...was made for the farmer who wants his tractor to look good after he sprayed painted it with rustoleum and used the vacume cleaner paint spray attachement he got with his HOOVER.......heheheheheheheheh
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Getting your paint to the right consistency to letter, and still getting coverage, is as much a part of the learning curve as making the letters look right and developing some speed at it. Black and other dark colors generally cover better. One-shot white CAN be done in one coat, without adding aluminum or other colors, but that takes practice!
Don't be afraid to play with mixing colors, either. I get a gorgeous deep rich "old gold" by mixing a few drops of purple into chrome yellow. Various shades of brick red can be had with orange, fire red, bright red, or maroon touched with black. And touching your greens with a drop or two of fire red tones them down into more "natural" colors. Also, if you get into any pictorial work or blended shades, there's no substitute for Smith's Cream (made by Danacolor) which is a blending medium.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The perticular coverage colors are all right on with the One Shot brand of Lettering enamels.Sounds to me the promblem of coverage lies in the area of thinner and thining.Cam comes closest with his statement:that getting the consistentsy of the mixture of paint and flow enhancers are just as nessisary if not more,and when thought about the very FIRST thing you both do and learn while lettering.The reason(and yes there is one)for "Palleting" is to 1:Load your brush with enough paint to cover. 2:Shape brush Flat for your chisled edge 3:To "Feel" the pull of the brush on another smooth flat substrate,in order to determine if your"mix" of paint and flow enhancer is correct BEFORE...you pull your stroke or strokes for producing letters. This process unfourtantly takes years to accomplish.While some pick it up faster than others.NEVER,EVER make the disission that somethings are not nessesary in the sign industry without thinking and deciding for YOURSELF!!! such as,Why do artist of any caliber use a pallett???use a mahl stick???make a sketch??? Don't let someones OPINION on palleting,additives,hardeners,flow enhancers,use of tools(puters etc)sway you one way or the other without trying it out yourself. Hope this helps
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Morning,all-- Pat ,you are correct in the idea that palleting has its place in the scheme of things--- all I am saying is that if one gets the paint mix right, then you can load your brush fully, pallette on the edge of the cup, and go. You are also correct in saying, in effect, do it whatever way works best for you. This is why I have never used a mahlstick-- well, I have-- but I never could make it work. I guess what this thread comes down to is this-- this young fella asked for advice, and I gave him the best that I could, and what does work for me. I know perfectly well that some, or most, of this wont work for everybody.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Gavin, while I don't actually shoot the clear over One Shot anymore, I do a lot of lettering and striping that gets cleared over. My son keeps me pretty busy with the helmets he does. I haven't used the hardner in the One Shot getting cleared for at least 12 years. I know it's recommended but I spent years experimenting with this process and find there is no advantage. No wrinkles, crazing or any problems. As long as the proper application of the clear is followed it's a breeze. True the One Shot doesn't lay as flat as HOK will and there is a little bit of an edge or ridge, but we're not doing show vehicles, besides any painted scallops, tears or flames leave an edge themselves. The OS ridgeis taken care of along with the painted ridges by sanding the clear and reclearing. I talked with Alan Johnson at a meet a few years back, as I knew he was clear coating OS and he said at that time he wasn't using harner either. I wish I had a dollar from everybody that has told me "you can't do that, it will lift" E-mail me if you have any questions. I've made every screw up possible with this process. The pitfalls are.
1. One Shot over lacquer then cleared with urethane...trouble. If you have to work on lacquer, shoot a coat of clear first ( a good idea anytime ) Thanks to Bob Aton of Sprinfield, Mo. for that info 2. Stabillo's, One Shot may lift where it crosses stabillo mark, plus ghosts are likely. A real bummer! 3. Nasty brushes, poorly cleaned brushes will ooze whatever oil you use, usually at the bottom of a long pull, resulting in a problem. 4.Heavy application of clear. This one will cause all kinds of grief, lifting, crazing, bleeding, getting under leaf and lifting in mass
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
thanks for all the advice guys! (i'll bring it back on topic and let you all argue about clear coats and hardeners in another message thread... i'm NOWHERE near ready to get to that stage yet).
one last thing though,
Does it matter how much paint you mix up? i've just been doing a tiny bit at a time (about two or three dips of a popsicle stick). i was wondering if the thinner was being absorbed into the paper dixie cup? it seems that just about the time i get the paint mixed to where it feels good, about one or two strokes later its thiickened up again. or is it the brush that's dried up? maybe the Penetrol will help keep it workable longer?
if i mix more than i can use, is there any way to "save" it overnight? (i hate the idea of mixing a bunch and just throwing it away).
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hi, Scooter-- Since most of the time I only do what most would call small jobs, I rarely mix more than an ounce of any one color at a time. I don't use paper cups, preferring instead the shot glass size plastic cups that you can get from most any hospital supply place. Be careful there 'tho because they come in a couple of "flavors"-- the clear ones are a harder type of plastic and do not like thinners or reducers-- the milky appearing ones are a softer plastic that will stand up to thinners real well. As far as saving the paint-- yes, you can, but not much more than a day or two. It will skin over, just slice off the skin, add a little reducer and do your thing. I wouldn't recommend this more than once for any given batch though. Good luck, and have fun.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I'm going to be flamed for this, but... Get a squirt bottle such as for contact lens solution, fill it with thinner, and use it to add thinner to paint, a drop or two at a time as it thickens in your cup. I pallete on the side of the cup - I use paper 3-ounce cups - unless I'm using a big mop (a #20 quill or bigger) that's just too big to effectively palette on the cup wall. Once paint dries in the cup overnight, use it again - I use cups three or four times. To (mahl)stick or not to stick - depends on the job. When I have tight patterns, with pounce lines I don't want to screw up, or when I'm painting wet-to-wet, I use a stick to keep my fingers off the surface. A stick is absolutely necessary for glass work, because you can't have fingerprint contamination on the surface, and they also help to pull a long vertical stripe. All the tips and opinions on earth are no substitute for practice. Letter everything! Paint jobs that you might normally do in vinyl when you can take the time. Letter up samples and displays for your shop. Letter with "problem" colors like emerald green, primrose yellow and magenta, 'cause if you get those down, the rest are easy. Dance with those squirrels til they move like they should, you'l never regret it.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Like Cam said, I use paper cups too, with the side as a palatte. Stay away from any cups with wax on them, as it can dull the paint, especially black. I add just a drop of maroon to white to help it cover, not enough to tint it pink, but just enough to help the paint cover. Have not found a trick for yellow yet (been 17 years trying). Be careful with some colors, white, yellow, some reds, when applying second coat. I have had the second coat wrinkle the first coat when applied and not enough drying time was allowed. I have never used hardner, just one shot and edge or one shot reducer. I liked edge, but can't find it around here anymore. I always use the "medium" one shot reducer, regardless of temp. Just had better luck with it, personal preference. Like George mentioned, take care of your brushes and clean them regularly, even if it's in the middle of the job and they start getting a "buildup" of paint. For lettering on hard surfaces, like steel or glass, I have always used brown or kazan quils, never greys seem to flow beter with less brush strokes. Only greys I own are my truck letterers. I always try to paint up and down on fills in lettering, going with gravity, eliminates alot of the brushstrokes and helps coverage some times. Bottom line, practice, practice, practice. I've been practicing for 17 years and still learn new things each time! Enjoy!
MC
------------------ Mike Clayton MC Graphics Barnegat, NJ http://www.visualnoise.com/mcg/ mike@visualnoise.com
"Youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery!"
Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Apart from certain colours ( minty greens.light blues etc.) Most colours won't cover with a brush in one coatif you want a good solid job.Althouh you can get a solid job using a mask and roller or spray. When the lettering and background are high contrast colours; better stick with two thinner coats that will flow out nice rather than one thick lumpy coat that will tend to run.You can knock out the second coat in no time anyway as you can keep just inside the 1st coat.
------------------ Goldenmahl Dave Hodge's Traditional Signs. Preston, England. 01772 743352 GOLDENMAHLDAVE@aol.com
Posts: 108 | From: Preston, Lancashire, England | Registered: Mar 2000
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LOL,,, sorry I just have to jump in here,,, I know every one is meaning well, and it appers that scootz" has the cow well hung"""... for the bleeding process,, but come'on, man.....Like a young buck on his first friday nite "ride" with a lady that tells him OOOooooo and Aaaaaaaaaa,,, sometimes ya just have to get it wet,,, and Learn with the scworm''...
It will be more rewarding in the end and you will KNOW that the Ooooooooo and Aaaaaaaaaaaaa is all YOUR Gift,, of knowledge and Exsperence,,,,, there is NO other way.....
Unless your thinking of being just another sailor waiting on the couch"" for the next available room...
Find yourself a chum close to you,,, and ask him to show you,,,,,, it should take only a minute and if you care at all,,, then you will have it in ONE trip to your chums place,,,,
Now, as far as letter formation,,, well,,,, as the say in OZ ""that's a horse of another color... good luck"" keep the passion,,, Twain,TBuk
posted
Hello Scooter, I suggest you attend the Letterheads meet in Milwaukee coming up in August. Don't worry about the cost. You will make it back ten-fold with all that you will learn by working side by side with everyone there.
Regarding your topic, I work out of shot glasses that I purchase at a restaurant supply store. They fit perfectly in my hand and I pallette on the edge. Even the best paper cups will eventually suck something valuable out of the paint. I got this tip from a One-Shot chemist over 15 years ago when I was having some trouble with dixie cups.
Bruce Deveau
------------------ Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 pop04667@tiac.net
Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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My ideal is cat food cand (tuna cans, too)! Don't leak or absorb! Reusable, after they dry, and the bottom is ideal fer pallating. Get some cats...they'll generate all ya need!
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Scooter This is what I use for containers the 4 oz. Gerber Baby bottles.
Ask your local hospital to save them for you.. Lids come with them for sealing and saving your paint.. They stack nicely in a cuboard for reuse of the colour.
------------------ Raven/2001 Airbrushed by Raven Lower Sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Hi scooter - Re your question of how long to leave before second coating.I leave overnight when I can. If you second coat too quick and the coat underneath is still soft you can get a wrinkled appearance to the top coat. If I am forced to second coat the same day, I add a few drops of hardener and a few drops of terebine driers to speed things up.
------------------ Goldenmahl Dave Hodge's Traditional Signs. Preston, England. 01772 743352 GOLDENMAHLDAVE@aol.com
Posts: 108 | From: Preston, Lancashire, England | Registered: Mar 2000
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This has been a great feed, not just for the original poster, but for others like myself who are fairly green spunges just soaking up as much as possible. There is so much talent and decaids of experiance on this BB! It's great to see folks unselfishly shareing their experiance!!!! ONE BIG THANK YOU to ALL OF YOU!!! Just imagine the "HOW TO BOOK" that could be produced by the generousity of the folks on this web site! Thanks again Robin
posted
Another point on double coating - often a thinner coat (more reducer) is enough to get coverage on a second coat, and will brush faster than trying to cover thick.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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