posted
I was prompted to start this thread by the truck design that was displayed for the cost study thread. George mentioned the concept of a logo, to be used for the company biz cards etc.
I could almost feel eyes rolling as they saw the type of company it was and figured "Yeah right, a logging company is gonna bite on that one". Had it not happened to me, I'd have thought the same thing. Now I know better to seize every opportunity by simply sparking the thought.
I do a good bit of logo work, and it pays well. I usually mention the idea to folks when I go to design a sign for their business. It works!
A couple years ago, my neighbour was having her trees trimmed. I have a highly wooded double lot here, and my trees are unruly, so when I heard the chain saws buzzing next door, I thought I'd invite these guys over to look at my trees.
I soon discovered two very dirty, hard working, but smiling fellows, with a run down old truck, and guess what? .... NO signs!
When they came over to bid my work, I told them what I did, and offered a trade. I had a few trees that needed some extensive attention, so for a fair exchange I came up with a very nice design for their signs, and we matched work value to work value. We both ended up smiling. He was tickled pink with his very cool new "arborist" signs, complete with a row of various trees silhouetted across it. I mentioned that he may want to have that be his new "identity" and polish up his act abit with matching cards etc. The idea of a cool logo brought a sparkle in his eye, and he left that day with that on his mind.
Months later, he called to make that happen, claiming his new signs were "working great"!. He paid me for the logo design, along with a fee for the biz card layout. He's been a regular customer ever since, and has even referred more sign AND logo work my way.
The opportunities are out there, just gotta strike a spark!
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
[This message has been edited by Janette Balogh (edited July 09, 2000).]
posted
Ok ok ok... Dan's book is on my list of things to get, but unfortunately, just when I think I can afford stuff... the month starts all over again!! Geez, I wish we all had one month per year when it was ILLEGAL to have to pay any of the monthly bills...
Anyways... just how do you introduce the concept of having to pay for a design when it has NEVER been done in your area before?
No other shops in my area charge any sort of design fee at all. And some of my clients... actually, quite a few of them, come to me because they want ME to do the work and not anyone else. I don't want to feel like I am taking advantage of this situation.
I am also wondering about adding the registration or whatever of the logo design for the company as part of the package, then it would make it seem more like they are paying for some big deal... do you know what I mean? (I'm not real sure how to word that.)
Next time I am in 'the cities', I'm gonna meet with someone who is familiar with all that registration and stuff. I'll get her to help me figure out all thats involved and the costs, etc.
I would like to charge what I am worth (HAHAHA... gee, tried saying that with a straight face), but how do you approach it?
------------------ Dana Aaron Sign-A-Saurus Nevis, MN (218)652-3839 ICQ# 37949659
Doesn't 'expect the unexpected' make the unexpected expected?
Could you elaborate how you were able to charge him a logo design fee after he purchased the signs with the designwork on them already? Or did I misinterpret the situation?
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dana, just so you don't feel bad, I haven't gotten around to getting Dan's book yet either. He has gotten his point across in SignCraft and right here on the BB. Definately got me to thinking. You merely offer to design the logo which will be theirs to do whatever they want with, business cards, stationary, sign work. They either go for the idea or they don't. In my case , if they don't go for the idea, they don't get a logo style truck lettering job. Simple as that. I don't want anyone to think I go around doing nothing but high end truck jobs or sitting on my attitude either. I bang out my share of $125 wreckers too. For that price they get scripts, casuals and plugs, corners or serifs are not available (check the menu) thanks Ken Going back to the truck in the cost study, looks like most folks are in the $300 dollar range. The guy leaves with a nicely lettered truck with a logo design on it. He decides to get cards made up, chances are he isn't coming back to you, yet you did all the design work. Or lets say he buys three more trucks and gets somebody else to letter them , again you did all the work. Sure you have the satisfaction that you designed the job, but whats that paying these days? I think I am looking at it in a couple of ways, looking for the opportunity to provide another service and on the other hand to get rewarded for something we as sign people have been giving away for way too long. I won't go into horror stories about stolen/copied designs, we've ALL been there. Sorry but the rules have changed here, I've gotten to old to be grabbin my ankles. I'd rather pad my wallet than my portfolio.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Here's one I use REGULARLY, Nettie. I take it upon my self to design the logo and then offer to let them buy it if they like it. If they like it but decline to buy the artwork, I explain that it's no problem.......they can USE it, but if someone else comes along that likes one of the designs I keep in the Zip drive, they (the original customer) get first option at buying it out right. If not, then the customer willing to cash me out of that logo/stylization, Whatever, gets the rights to the logo. I've never lost with this method. I can think of only two times in 30 years that I wasn't able to sell a logo on the first or second attempt. I typically give them three approaches from which to choose.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Pierre & George are on the right track here. I'm not saying my way is the "right way", but it comes with alotta personal success stories for me.
Dana and Donna, I'll address your questions here now, but first I want to elaborate on something Dana mentioned. She said something to the effect … many people come to her because they want HER, … then she says … she doesn't want to take advantage of that. Dana … change your thinking abit here. You are the person they seek out, because you do what you do. That is your "skill and expertise", and the fact that those customers recognize that gives you an edge already. There is nothing wrong with compensation for that. You are earning that recognition by offering what other's don't, and now you can offer them even more! You know well, that isn't something you developed overnight. To earn a paycheck for that is no crime. You are welcome to call me anytime for advice, I'll help you get past the jitters of approaching them with the idea of a logo.
There is a difference between a design that is designated for the use of a sign, and one that's function is to be a bonafide "logo", which becomes their identity in multi capacities. Yet they can be the same design.
I know it sounds confusing, but it's really not.
I have folks coming to me specifically for logos, from there that branches off into signwork, cards etc, More often, I have it go the other way around. I'll address the sign to logo situation.
Generally, when they come to me for a sign, if they don't already have a logo, I open up the issue of a logo before I even start designing anything. The seed is planted that they could engage me for a design with the mindset of it being a full-fledged logo from the get go, or just enlist me for a nice layout/design to be used for the sole purpose of their signwork. That design may or may not become their extensive logo for everything later down the line ... at a cost.
Should they opt to go down logo lane right off, I, then, design something with that mindset. This meaning, I consider the extended uses for the design, and the variations it is to be exhibited, and the marketing uses it will have… etc. The logo becomes theirs, so they get a disc, a hardcopy , slicks in various sizes if they want (what have you) to take wherever they please, and do with whatever they want. I offer biz card layout services , letterhead set ups, brochure design concepts here too, but once they have bought the actual logo design, they are not obligated to hire me for any of that. ( I'm itching to learn web design, but get exhausted at the mere thought of the learner's curve.) I'll add that when I design a biz card, or stationary, I can go as far as choosing the paper etc, because I keep several paper companies' samples on hand right here. A firm knowledge of the process of taking things to print is extremely helpful here. Offering all this can be time consuming with lots of variables, which is why we can command the big bux!
Now in the case of my story above, I designed something for his sign, dropping a seed of thought that it could be a logo for him if he so choosed. In this vane, I did get some money for the designwork as a part of that sign, but conveyed that I retained ownership of that design if it were to be used elsewhere.
I'm forseeing your next question to be …."but how does that stop someone from just using that design elsewhere anyway?". This is a very valid and good question. The fast answer is, in the big scheme of things it really doesn't. But it does serve to deter them from doing so. Realistcially, even with signatures and agreements, they could still try to get your design duplicated,(although it would be hard to duplicate it off a sign) or do something close, elsewhere, down the line. This is where creativity and good customer relations is a plus. If you alter fonts, and add things to your design that make it unique and not easily duplicated, (which is what distinguishes a good logo anyway right?) and if you've won that customer's trust and confidence … they are yours. They will be back to pay for the added usage of your design for their business, or they will pay to claim the rights to that as a logo design of their own.
Dana, you asked me how to introduce this concept to an area where it doesn't exist now. One way that I can tell you is to have examples of stuff you may have done before, and show them as logo packages. People are visual beings, and can be sparked with examples. Having examples of any product or idea you are trying to promote is the best way to convey the message.
Before closing here, I'll say that things don't always run smoothly with this sort of thing. It takes some getting used to, and that happens with practice. You'll make mistakes, I sure did, but you can get to a place where you will approach these situations with confidence, and in a matter of fact fashion. Getting to this place makes you more credible in the eyes of your customer.
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
[This message has been edited by Janette Balogh (edited July 09, 2000).]
posted
Great analogy, Nettie..........now go design a logo! :^)
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Ah, what an interesting topic! My favorite, of course!
This month's issue of SC has an article I wrote talking about just this subject. In the article, I try and address the concept of logo design as pure advertising value, and try and convey that it should be sold not as a "time and materials" job, but rather it's intrinsic value to the client and their identity.
A strong portfolio helps sell the idea to your clients about what exactly a logo is. Many have no concept. Its your job as designers to explain the fee for a logo, why its necessary, and what you get with that fee.
Logo design is building identities for businesses. These identities help generate revenue for the client. Simple. If I tell a client that I can design a logo for their business that will help grow their business and create a positive image in their customer's mind, do you think they'll say no? Why would they opt to not have something that will improve their sales?
If you can't convince the client of a the real value of good logo design, they are probably not worth your effort in the first place. Also, perhaps look at the way in which you presented your pitch to them on getting a logo design. Perhaps you are not addressing what the client wants to hear.
The real sales pitch is this. "I'm going to design an image for your business that will improve your sales, help generate a positive image, and ultimately will add to your bottom line. Additionally, your new image will help you garner a greater price for your work because you will have the image to back it up. And if you allow my firm to design all your materials, you will have one COHESIVE identity."
Smart business owners know the value. And if their wishy-washy in the beginning, you can bet six months afterwards, they KNOW the value.
I know New Jersey is considered some sorta mecca for magical things to happen in this industry, and often I hear, "well, it's different in NJ than it is here."
Let me assure you all, we've got some of the worst lettering around. I'm surrounded by incredibly poor sign work - done by folks who couldn't get a nickel for a even sketch, let alone a logo.
But somehow, for small businesses, I'm managing to get at a minimum, $350 for a logo BEFORE I touch their vehicle. Larger companies ones are paying a helluva lot more, as they should. The logos I sell through my web site start at a minimum of $450 for two color, and up to $900 for full color. That's still cheap.
How is that possible? Its all in the pitch.
I don't consider myself or my business to be a sign shop. I think of my company as an ad agency. We'll design and market your business and give you the proper tools to help promote your business. Of those tools, vehicle lettering is a small part of it. We add web design, stationery, cards, printing, brochures - everything they need to market their business effectively.
On the other hand, of you ONLY want two truck doors, no logo or anything, it quickly become apparent that my pricing will be beyond their needs. I'm not going to undersell my time and expertise because they don't need it. That's like hiring an accountant to do simple addition. Sure he can do it - but is he going to lower his hourly rate because its very simple work?
Surely not.
I think sometimes folks need to stop thinking of themselves as people who stick letters to things, and think instead of themselves as people who effectively market and promote other businesses.
posted
Nettie, In many of my estimates for signs where I feel I have had a little room to play, I try to show them a sketch of what they ask for, plus a couple of upgraded variations of their logo on a couple of other sketches and maybe a complete change and major upgrade in another one. This can be touchy with some customers, as you don't want to belittle what they are doing, but in many cases it will net you a lot better job than what you bargained for. Most businessmen are far removed from proper design and layout in their logo image, but know what they like if they see it. All my expenses are usually deferred to the prices of the upgraded signs so it looks like I am doing it gratis. As a bonus to them, if they would like, I lay up the logo for 4 color letterhead and business cards to be printed by their desk jets for a small charge.This can grow into changing a lot of signage around their businesses. Bronzeo
------------------ Jack Davis 1410 Main St Joplin, MO 64801 www.imagemakerart.com bronzeo@prodigy.net http://www.imagemakerart.com
Posts: 1549 | From: Joplin, MO | Registered: Mar 2000
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Dana Aaron
unregistered
posted
Oh, sorry Nettie, shoulda tried harder to put across what I meant...
The people come to me because they KNOW me - friends - or hubby's friends, or a friend sent them, or they REALLY hate the other guy or whatever. Not just my work. (In a town of about 400 people, you tend to know quite a few of them.) I don't want to feel like I am taking financial advantage by charging someone so much in a situation where they don't want to go somewhere else. Boy, that didn't come out quite it either. I hope you can guess what I mean.
I tried selling a set of truck doors for $175 (all vinyl). Geez, I wish I knew CPR better. Needless to say, it was a deal where he couldn't swing it, so I did it in one color and handed it to him to apply for a price he could do.
I know the "our area can't get that price" blah blah blah gets beaten to death on here, but what do you do? I'm afraid if I did a design fee PLUS the sign or truck or whatever, I would be out of work.
Seems like everytime I do a sign for a new business, they love it so much they want to put the design on everything. So it becomes their logo.
How do you deal with the rejections?
What do you do when they say they really want to, but no way can afford it? Just take all the bells and whistles off and do a plain old sign for less? Then that's work out there I'm not as excited about for people to see. (You know, the ones you don't sign.)
I already usually charge more then the 4 shops in the big town of Park Rapids (pop about 3000). - remember that big entrance sign I lost out on, my bid being $5900, and hers was $4200?? ...oh, and there was another one lower than her...
I would hate to lose the people (who I see everyday as friends and all) to the other shops because, even tho my design was really great and they really wanted me to do it, they just couldn't swing the price. Then what?
Thats why I was wondering about registering the logo or something, so it would appear to have the value of the extra money, know what I mean?
As far as the truck prices... I just did a set of doors and bug shield on a truck. Nothing super fancy, only 2 colors, all vinyl. $150. Sorry. But he paid me on the spot, he's happy, we're still friends and this month's student loan pymt and business insurance got paid.
------------------ Dana Aaron Sign-A-Saurus Nevis, MN (218)652-3839 ICQ# 37949659
Two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts does.
posted
The place that I repetedly get stuck is when the customer returns and wants to use the design I did for their sign for an ad in the program flyer for the play at the community theatre production. It's often a sales person for the theatre company that calls wanting the art. I explain that it's mine and get a call from my customer and need to define why I wish to charge so much for something I alrealdy have on a disc.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dana, if you plan to get a logo 'registered' for a client as part of the package you will soon find out that the lawyers, research fees and paperwork will cost an average $1200. This is about 3 times the average cost of creating a small-business logo. I too live in a small rural area (pop. 253) but my client base reaches out for several miles, 15 year ago no one in this area was charging extra for 'logos'. Every time I created a decent layout for a sign or vehicle I would soon see a poor rendition of it in a newspaper ad or business card for the client. Don't take me long to rethink a business situation, hey, why not offer the customer a camera-ready copy of their layout for business cards and ad slicks? Fortunately, this has grown to become a very large part of our business, like Dan Antonelli said in his post 'think of your business as an ad agency' if you're doing the work of an ad agency then charge for it. People can and will pay for what they want, offer them the chance. As long as you are willing to give them this service at no charge then don't expect them to make you sell it as a value added service.
------------------ Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where gonna find the time to do it over?
Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:I think sometimes folks need to stop thinking of themselves as people who stick letters to things, and think instead of themselves as people who effectively market and promote other businesses.
Words that are worth a second look.
This is indeed a mindset worth adapting. Having been involved in graphic related industries before working for a sign shop, I've carried thru that line of thinking into this trade. I also approach things with that "graphic studio" mentality, pricing accordingly wherever possible.
Still, I see and understand that there is a long history of doing it differently in the sign industry, that will be difficult to reverse. But consider this ... "if you think you can't, you're right". Changing the way you look and think about graphic design is the first step to making changes.
Dana, by your words I suspect that it is those "friends" that are taking advantage of *you*. People will either seek you out for a good deal, or for the quality of your work. Friends or not. Dana, I've seen your work, and now reading your words, I surmise that these folks are winning big with you, getting both the deal and the nice work.
What I want to suggest to you, is that you try to hold your ground more on your pricing. When someone appears to waver on your price, and "talk poor", don't be so quick to retract and "help them out" for fear of losing them. It could well be your quickness in buckling and giving in that is perpelling your situation. Try this a few times ... 1)don't be afraid to ask the price, 2.)spill it out with a "matter of fact" confidence, and then 3.)don't budge. See then if they really do walk and leave you for a less superior sign elsewhere, or if that was just your fears dictating your actions, and therefore the outcomes all along.
About your registration inquiry, there is no official process necessary. When you show a sketch, have a circle-c denoting copyrite visable, along with a warning detering design theft.
Rick, I know what you mean about that situation. Much of that can be curbed by your initial dealings with the customer, and the way that you outline the logo process with them from the very beginning. Dan is right that we should all try to get them to buy that logo from the very start, but that doesn't always fly, I've had luck with my method, which still puts the logo issue into their heads at the onset, and can always be something to revisit later when they "get it" and realize they really do see a need for it.
Like in the case of my tree guy. The lightbulb went off when he saw his truck signs were "working great", and since I had introduced the concept of uniformity with a logo for his cards etc, ... he returned enthusiastically with his hand on his wallet ready to pay for not only the logo, but now also a better knowledge of the results of that type of advertising.
Guaging these kinds of results, and showing examples are to be things to strive for in selling this concept to your customers.
Dan's right in that, getting them to see this from the very beginning is the optimum goal.
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
[This message has been edited by Janette Balogh (edited July 10, 2000).]
posted
I think this is an area where working for someone else in their shop sure would come in handy.
In school, they never taught us how to 'sell' signs.
At the shop I worked at, I did all the painting, some vinyl and a little design... but none of the selling. I'm completely on my own here.
Probably sounds stupid, like, what the heck am I doing with my own shop and I don't know how to sell anything!?!?!
This is a example of how much I wish I lived near some of you guys out there, just to be able to sit and listen to how you word this, go about selling.
hmm... come to think of it, if I lived near anyone... I'd be working for them!!!! Oh, well, doesn't look like that's gonna happen, so I will plug along, confused as usual, in my little shop here!!
------------------ Dana Aaron Sign-A-Saurus Nevis, MN (218)652-3839 ICQ# 37949659
Two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts does.
posted
I get logo design work all the time locally, and it's all in the way you market the design.
Like Dan, I start off at $350 for basic logo design. Oddly enough, I've done this since I started my business in March '99.
My market strategy: It's not easy to convince people to pay you $350 for a basic logo design (one color) but when you can show them the benefit of having a SINGLE common logo for all their work, they will pay. When I do a fresh logo design, I outline what they will get for their money. They will get camera ready prints on velum, Vector art in AI, EPS and CDR (CorelDraw) formats on disk, as well as TIF and PSD (PhotoShop) raster image formats on disk. I talk to the local printshops and find out what kind of artwork requirements they have, and I provide artwork to their specs so when the customer needs biz cards, flyers, brochure etc done, they wont have any additional setup costs at the printshop.
This is a key issue. Show the customer that normally they would have to pay up to $50 each to have biz cards, flyers, brochures, ad slicks, phonebook ads etc setup for printing. HOwever, with your "one time" fee there are no additional setup costs in the future.
Stress the importance of having a single logo or identity to represent the business. I run into this all the time with web design. People want five different logos for their business but they really NEED a single identity.. or five different businesses.. =)
When you meet or talk with the client about your bid, you need to be firm on the price. I'm 24 years old, and on more occassions than not people try to use my age to their advantage, as if they could just walk all over me and beat up my prices. I know this negotiating game from working at an architectural engineering firm, dealing with clients and bid proposals. I have no problems with telling people to seek services elsewhere. I know it's tough when there's no food on the table, but my luck always brings plenty of work at the end of the month.
Copyrights and getting paid: This is the fun part. It's hard to keep someone from using your work on something else, however you as the designer have legal recourse if it happens. It needs to be clear to the customer that you intend to persue legal action if you see YOUR logo (it's yours, unless they paid for a copyright)being used on other vehicles or signage. All you need to provide to persue this is an image of the design, some proof that you designed it (signed document with customer's sig) and proof of the date it became "published" (sold). You may never need to persue it, you just need this to deter the customer from reproducing your work.
I retain full rights on all artwork I design unless the customer pays the seperate base $350 design fee.
In time you will develop the image of "firm but fair". You dont want to crank out bargain work all the time because it will be difficult to demand more liveable prices in the future. I turn away a fair deal of quick cash jobs locally, but I welcome quick cash orders via my website. The quickie $50 jobs are better when you don't have to deal with anyone in person, and preferably they are a couple thousand miles away. =)
By turning away the jobs you wouldnt want to sign your name on, it saves the time for the jobs you do want to sign. In turn, the nicer layouts will bring you more similar work and more $$$.
Hey, it's not all about just enjoying your work. Everyone has to eat. Hopefully you can make enough $$ to play a little too.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thanks nettie, for starting a very informative post.
May I add here, graphic design houses start their logo fees at $1500.00. Shock yourself and ask for this amount. You just may get it. After all, you deserve it!
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Donna, the possiblities are endless, with just alittle gumption! heehee!
The pricing of logowork seems to be such an individual thing. I noticed your 2 prices on the cost study post of that pick up truck, and by that I'm wondering if you charge a flat rate for logos? That's pretty cool, since your charges are pretty healthy.
I generally handle each logo design individually . I do consider the nature of it's exposure, the type of business (corporate or small business) and the amount of time I spend both consulting with the client, and at the drawing board before arriving to the approved design, and final price. I initially inform clients where my logo prices start, ($250.) and the price range I estimate for their circumstance not including unforseen numerous go arounds. They are made aware that my design time comes at a cost, and so the more we can accomplish with the initial consultation, the better the chances of "nailing" that logo design sooner.
My good friend, Geoff, owns an Ad firm, and I know well the figures they deal with daily in their work. (shazam!) They are also true professionals in their work. (awesome stuff!) I think folks coming into this realm from the "signshop scene" will take some time before those numbers roll off their tongues with ease. But, it ought to be moving in that direction.
Personally, my most lucrative logos to date have been in the $1200 range. (U.S.) ... but most still lie between $350. to $700. for me. I do charge separately for the letterhead and biz card layouts and output, so I reap alittle more there.
Yup, I do challenge folks to surprise themselves ... even if at their own pace, but ease on upward for heaven's sakes! I still sweat it ... but it does get easier with practice.
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
posted
Think of my business as an ad agency? No way, some of the greatest steamiest piles of errrrrr... artwork I've ever had to reproduce have come from Ad agencies. Id rather eat bark David
------------------ D.A. & P.M. Fisher Signwriting Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com
Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
hahahaaha.... David, All I can say to that is this ... there are good Ad agencies, and their are bad, just as there are good signshops and, um,... not so good!
You decide, ... you gonna be a good'un, or a bad'un?
Oh and David ... I like grapenuts .... that's kinda like bark! hee hee!
You gonna be Florida way on your tour of the US?
Nettie
------------------ "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
posted
At the risk of sounding like I'm BS'ing my way into this post, what the heck.
My logos started at $285 once upon a time. I found that they not only required more time so I could work with ease, but that the value was worth alot more.
This is how the ball started rolling for me. I had two clients wander over my way after dealing with graphic design houses. They were use to paying bigger bucks, so when I asked them what their budget was, it was higher than I normally would have charged for logos at the time.
I accepted their challenges and put more into my work than I would at the $285 range. I found the end result was better, thus, establishing what I needed to charge to do a good job I felt proud of as well as getting what the work is worth.
Just as a side note, I on purpose don't call my shop Graphic Impact Signs, because I don't wish to emphasise 'sign shop', but rather, design. Why? It PAYS BETTER. If your design work is not paying you well, you need to charge more people. Trust me on this.
And as nettie says, it's most definately difficult to overcome. My art teacher once told me, "Charge as much as you can without laughing." After I thought about it, he was right. Who can price our own design work? Only we can. We set a worth on our work and establish who we want to be.
To clarify my prices abit more, I have two options. #1 is the $700 package and up, that includes text only, no hand designed graphics, and I own the design rights. They sign off what they wish to spend and I work within that amount.
#2 is the $1500 and up package. A full blown logo which includes a hand designed graphic, full color and one color logo on disk, placed in a spec binder, with info on the logo, (pms colors, etc), PMT printouts for one color ads such as the newspaper, and whatever other work I do for this client, a copy goes into a page protector with info on the output and added to the book. (my most lucritive to date is $2000)
I attempt to emphasise the 1500 package so the info is thorough and they don't have to trapse back to me a million times with a copy of this, and that. Those that purchase this package usually come back anyway because they love the fact that I can get their stationery designed and output for them as well. One stop shopping clients.
Now a quick truck lettering I have in a different catagory. Much like nettie does, I setup and output the lettering, and own the rights to the design. The lettering is kept quite simple if they don't wish to purchase the logo outright. I've only had one trucker come back for further work to add. Most of the truckers I deal with are one shot deals, and within two years they work for someone else and ditch their 'look'. So theoretically, I also charge according to whom I'm working for.
It took a great deal of courage to ask what I do, but I am getting it for asking. I encourage you guys to start by adding $50 to your prices which is peanuts. It gets easier. It's all in your presentation and speech.
------------------ Graphic Impact located in BC Canada gisigns@sprint.ca
Posts: 5630 | From: Yarrow, BC Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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You know, I just don't get it. About 3 years ago I decided upon a "new logo" Do you think I expected an artist(yes ARTIST )to do this for me for nothing ? Why do you talented people act afraid to ask for the money ? you know,the answer is always "no'until you ask " ! Come on,who do you know that can do this stuff ? GET THE MONEY HONEY !! Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Merlin, OR
it's GREAT.. you just have to experiment and find what people will put up with..
I had one local business, a jetski repair/engineering shop, have a new variation of their logo made up. The first words out of the owner's mouth was "What do I owe you to start the logo re-design?"
I was floored!! Someone had already trained him.. wow!! So, I told him the cost right there and he had no problems with that.
Had it been some kid wanting a logo designed for a car club (I get lots of those) I do those cheaper. Getting $350 out of teens and 20-somethings like that is tough so I dont even push my luck, however I make them killer lookin logos and they always come back to me for more and refer other clubs to me as well.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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We long ago recognized that we could reproduce most anything that anyone designed or made for indoors or out. However we sucked at designing. So what did we do? We got a real sign and graphics designer. Not only does she make things a lot easier for us, we get to sell original work and make money while doing it. This has worked great for us. We have also been able to produce great signs with a variety of materials. And we increased sales and prices to boot. EEEEHHHHAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! Oh yeah by the way we charge for logo design, card layout and the rest.
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