posted
a potential customer is interested in having her logo done in etched glass. they want it etched on the door glass, with the street number on the transom glass, and then the whole name (8 letters) on the 8 small windows up high (12" high etched letters). she knows she'll need to buy new glass for the little windows up high. she already has some fellow giving her a price to mask and blast everything. i've never done that kind of work, so here's my question: 1. should i just stay clear of it? 2. try to bid it (how?) 3. offer to do it in etch look vinyl? (vinyl frost, etchmark, etc)
also, i'm really concerned that it will just dissapear and that what she really needs is a sign, or at least get the times roman letters (her "logo") outlined or something. white store front, big windows. I've asked my supplier for some etch vinyl samples so we can put them up on the glass and she can see what it will look like.
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
If you are comfortable working with vinyl, I would definitely go with etched vinyl. It's simple to apply either on the front or back of glass(I use RapidTac(Hi Roger)and make sure the surface is extra clean) I've used it at banks, boutiques and more and it looks great! 3M brand has more sparkle than Arlon's(or is it SparCal?) and is more expensive, but they both look like the real thing to most people. Of course vinyl gives the option of removal later if needed.
I would get a small amount of both brands and cut your company logo or other classy looking graphic and apply to the front and back of some scrap plexiglass. I have one and it almost "sells itself" as they say.
I'll stop typing now, but here's a poor picture of one logo I did in etched:
------------------ Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Rye, NH USA alan@dearborngraphics.com
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Geez! PhotoPoint let me post pictures yesterday?! oh well...guess I'd better get to work on my own website... ------------------ Alan Dearborn Dearborn Graphics Rye, NH USA alan@dearborngraphics.com
[This message has been edited by AlanD (edited June 27, 2001).]
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Is the door all glass(tempered)? If so,DON'T try to etch it! It will eventually shatter! Chemical etching materials are pretty nasty stuff....toxic! Sand blast etching is something best left to someone that is experienced! Hate to rain on your parade, but if it was me. I'd offer her etch look vinyl and state that you also cand do colors!
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
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Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Paasche makes an airbrush type thingie called an "Air Eraser" which works very simular to the airbrush. It uses aluminum oxide instead of paint and will etch anykind of glass.
A mask can be made on your plotter and the project completed with the air eraser. Although this particular project may be abit large for the air eraser thats no reason you shouldn't have one in your corral of tools.
------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something...... http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
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Si's right about TEMPERED glass, don't even let it get near a sandblaster or it'll be rubble. ooops...
Etched vinyl looks great and the price is right for the look. Like Alan said, it looks good from both sides of the window. Don't worry about it disappearing, sounds like your customer knows what they want and the look they're after.
We applied etched vinyl to the inside of a glass door, facing east. Gets the morning sun and still looks great, been there 3 years now.
Try it, you'll like it! Cher.
------------------ Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on MIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida VSignsNgraphics@aol.com
Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Isn't automobile tempered glass? The air eraser used with aluminum oxide will not hurt it what so ever. But in a way I'm happy you can't take the chance.....
------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something...... http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
posted
Guys- I've been etching glass for 17yrs, never had a car window pop yet! Tempered glass needs pressure put in one spot for it to pop. Just don't try to "carve" into the glass. the air eraser is for small jobs (glassware) I wouldn't use it for this job.Aluminum oxide is a fast cutting medium used at low pressure(20-30psi). For this job, simple play sand would be the best, makes a nice dark etch, BUT, its gonna be messy. I have yet to find a vacuum system that will work for this kind of job. Stick with vinyl! Looks just as good, and will be cheaper. I'd have to charge 50.00/sq ft and clean-up. doc
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
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Tempered glass is typically REQUIRED by BUILDING CODE on any commercial structure along the first floor and storefront area, to keep pedestrians safe from glass shattering if they stumble and bump into a large window. I know this from designing window systems for skyscrapers. Small commercial areas may not have the code however they should.
Tempering creates higher surface tension on the glass, which makes it more resistant to impact, but if you penetrate the surface.. whether it's with a sharp object or a blow with a fine-tipped object - yee haw.. duck and cover cause the glass is gonna blow out before you know what happened.
Auto glass is tempered AND laminated so there isnt as much risk there..
But either way.. I dont see how etching the window can hurt anything. You physically cannot etch deep enough to cause damage with etch creams or an Air Eraser.. if you could, it would take you MONTHS of standing there trying to do it. =) If you do it with a sandblaster, you're goin WAY deeper than what's really needed to scuff the glass surface.
I would give her all the options.. sandblasting, etch cream, Air Eraser, etch vinyl.. and let her pick.
If it needs to be removed, the vinyl is the only way to go.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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thanks again, guys! i'll try to push her towards the vinyl. it seems that the vinyl material is about twice the price of sandblast mask, but its the same amount of labor to apply, and a LOT less work otherwise. (i'm sort of nervous about carrying all the bits of glass - and the door - to the sandblaster - i wouldn't blast it myself).
other than good glass cleaning, are there any special things i need to know about the etched-look vinyl? fingerprints, cleaning, that sort of thing? is there anything special the customer needs to know about it?
(the glass in the door is just ordinary window glass. its a wood frame door in a 1920s building... not a storefront system. the door glass is only about 20" x 30")
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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hi scooter and whatever your choice is....good luck. however i've gotta stick in a few words to continue the lick. blasting and etching are two different things. etching would be done with acid. there a several "safe" items that could be used on this project even though it sounds like the client is truely in the market for a vinyl version. the benefit to an acid version is that no matter how you handle it it looks great....unlike the blasted option which if touched the oil from your hand will give it "dead" spots and need to be washed. all that lightly frosted glass we see in english pubs is white acid and that is a subject unto itself.
posted
ok, now i'm curious... is "etching" something a novice can do? is it just a matter sticking down some stencil and then smearing on acid goop, or is it an arcane art like glue chipping? (and thank you for letting me know the dif tween etch and blast).
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Joey's method would work fine if vinyl wasn't acceptable. The glass will never break. I have one of the devices he's speaking of. It's just like an airbrush. Once you do the etching, you have to really rub your fingers over the surface to fell the etched area since it really doesn't cut much into the glass. I wouldn't wanna use this method for anything over 3-4 feet though. I've used this method on many crystal wine glasses and never had any problems.
------------------ Bruce Evans Chromark Design-A-Sign Covina , CA bruce@chromark.net
Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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ScooterX, I put my business name on the back door windows of my car. One day this guy came out of his shop and seriously asked me, "Who did your window? I love it! Did they have to take your doors off to do the sand blasting?" Beleive it or not, the fellow was my vinyl supplier and he could not tell that it was vinyl on those windows...it looked sooooo goooood. It was easy to apply and a dream to come off when I sold the car. I also have a decorative border and arch on my sliding doors onto my office at my shop. It looks fabulous and quite often get comments on the beautiful sandblasting (they can't beleive it is vinyl!!) We have been approached to do it on shower doors too...what a cool idea! Vinyl is so simple, so easy, so removable if a client moves or tires of a design. Good luck. "Stick" to what you know. No pun intended. Sue
------------------ Susan Banasky Source Signs Nanaimo, British Columbia sourcesigns@telus.net
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I just did one of these jobs for the first time the other day. The roll of vinyl cost me around $50, sold the job for $200, and I had most of the stuff left.
------------------ Steve Barba is the proud owner, president, & sole employee of Sturgis Sign Works. "B0LT" on the chat room thing. 209 Oak Drive Sturgis SD 57785 sbarba2616@dtgnet.com 605-720-7667
Posts: 768 | From: Sturgis South Dakota | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If you are going to use an acid, it comes in a cream, usually around $11.00/qt. It's hydrofouric acid, paste. You can apply it with a brush,or roller,depending on the job, I also apply it, then dab it with a plastic grocery bag to give the etch a cool pattern. Remember, you have to leave it set for about 10 min.(DON'T LET IT DRY)Then you have to wash it off with water. Obviously this can do some bad things to old wooden doors. As far as "blasting" I use anything from corn starch,to play sand,depending on the desired effect.
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
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since i'm on the pricing topic, here's what the job entails: 10 12" x 18" panes (supplied loose) with one letter each (12" high letter), the logo installed on the door glass (logo is horizontal, so it will be about 22" x 12"), and the street number installed on the transom glass above the door (4 numbers, about 8" high each, or 22" x 8").
I figured it using the "Official Sign Contractors Pricing Guide". I figured it was 2 words with 8" letters, 1 word with 12" letters, and added $2.50/sq. ft for the vinyl (etchmark vinyl is a LOT more expensive than regular colored vinyl). to that i added $39 "installation/delivery" (even though its only across the street) and my total came to $174.50.
that "feels" like a low price - especially compared to what i'm sure etching or blasting would cost. any thoughts?
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I have been etching glass for quite some time now and I use the acid type. For a mask I use the vinyl laying around that no one wants, so I use that up, run the design through the plotter and peal out what I want etched, transfer, then apply to the window and etch. Pretty simple and looks great.
------------------ Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com
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Scooter....I don't know how much you will be paying for the vinyl..Here in Canada the 3M stuff costs $18/yd for 15" and the Avery is $9.50/yd for 24" material. (Go figger!)
Anyway, I figure that you'll need about 5 yds of 15" material to do the job so that would be about $95 for the good/expensive stuff. It is going to take you at least an hour to cut/weed and premask it. There is the time it took to set up the file in the first place. And it is going to take another hour to apply it. So lets say you have a maximimum of 4 hrs into the job..At $50/hr you should get $200 labour + $150 material costs with markup of 50% + tack on your profit ..Say $50...Total cost of the job should be around $400.
Those are Canadian figures so in U.S. dollars that would be around $265
Of course you could always use my favourite method of figuring a price....10 times vinyl cost...But I doubt you'd get the job!!!! LOL
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
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Hey Jim, what type of acid do you use to etch the glass, and where do you purchase it? Anyone have any links to some sites with some basic info on acid glass etching, or perhaps a supply site? Seems pretty cool, I would like do do some designs on my van windows... Thanks!
------------------ Tyler Malinky
A Step Above Signs Cleveland, Ohio 440.479.8129 440.842.1894 fax
www.astepabovesigns.com tmalinky@astepabovesigns.com or exmayors@aol.com
Posts: 190 | From: Parma, Ohio USA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I get my hydrophloric acid paste from, stained glass suppliers in the area, Delpi Stained Glass supply, out of Michigan. As for the mask, use any scrap vinyl,I've even used shelving (contact) paper in a pinch.As far as price, yours sounds low. Remember this is a paste if your going to use it for large areas,your giong to use alot of this stuff, to cover properly. If you don't cover the glass completely,with the cream, you'll get a blotchy pattern in the etch.
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
posted
Tyler, I first learned about etched glass in a stained glass class, thought this would enhence the sign end of the business,that it did because I could accent indoor signs with a little stained glass around the edges with metal sign blank painted and lettered or even the use of a mirror that was etched and then outlined with 1-shot, pretty cool stuff. Anyway I pick my acid cream up at any stained glass supplier and there are tons of them on the web site too.
David, good point about the cream....you must cover the whole area (such as a complet area that is masked with the cream) if you do not cover this area all at once, the cream as David said, will come out blotchy. The cream will only etch so deep so more than one application will only make the area blotchy too.
If anyone has any questions feel free to call or e-mail any time.
Jim
------------------ Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com
posted
Well, I just picked up a 24 oz. container of the etching cream for about $14 at a local craft store.. I am going to play around with it tonight, and will post some results one of the next couple days.. So you do you guys suggest as far as pricing goes? I will be doing mainly custom stuff on car windows. does it matter if it is on a back window, with the 'lines' running in the glass, for the defroster? Any type of window you shouldn't use it on? thanks for any input!
------------------ Tyler Malinky
A Step Above Signs Cleveland, Ohio 440.479.8129 440.842.1894 fax
www.astepabovesigns.com tmalinky@astepabovesigns.com or exmayors@aol.com
Posts: 190 | From: Parma, Ohio USA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Tyler- you won't be able to etch the windshield,it has a plastic,coating on it for safety, the defroster usually has a plastic lining, so it shouldn't bother it at all. check with ur local police, or highway patrol, about how much,if any, of the rear window can be obscured. In Ohio, I can only cover 30%.I normally get $35.00 for 1 item in a side window,usually in the corner, and $125.00 for a border and center item in the rear window
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
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Just a comment on etching car windows..Unless it is a restored "classic or "antique" vehicle I wouldn't even consider doing it with etching cream. Just like I wouldn't consider buying a used car that had "Calvin" permenantly etched into the glass.
A classic or antique with a small rose or emblem or something would be a different matter of course (but it would also either devalue or increase the value of the vehicle..depending on the buyer).
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
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Dave- I don't worry about it, most of my customers are low rider owners, but, I have done some model a's and t's, for restorers, putting the L.O.F. logo in replaced glass,to bring them back to as close to original,as possible. My view is, "If the customer wants it and its not illegal, I'll do it.
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
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Interesting post and very informative. I went to a Letterhead meet several years ago down in Brinbane at the Southbank TAFE colledge (where they teach the apprentice signies in Queensland) and one of the exercises was masking, sandblasting and etching a glass mirror. The etching was done using the cream you mentioned. I bought 90ml of the cream for Aust$12 (translate to US$25). The thing that has had some concern for me is the health dangers assosiated with this material. Any comments on this aspect of its use. The conatainer states the ingrediants as "20% Ammonium Biflouride UN1727".
------------------ Badges2 is Bob Wright from Bundy Badges Screenprinting & Dad to Katie (Kookaburra) located in Bundaberg Queensland Australia (The land of OZ) badges@interworx.com.au
Posts: 69 | From: Bundaberg, Qld. Australia | Registered: Oct 1999
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Badges- This stuff is a caustic, so use caution. Where rubber gloves,and use it in a well ventilated area, by all means avoid breathing too much of the fumes, who knows what this acid can do to ur lungs.
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
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just wanted to post a big THANK YOU to all the folks who helped me with the etched glass questions. the customer approved my quote ($225) for the vinyl etch look. i got three samples of the different etch vinyl brands and she chose the Avery Etchmark (it is more opaque/frosty than the others).
i'll do a little sample using the acid etch cream in a few weeks. i'd like to be able to show future customers the same image (my logo) in real acid etch as well as in the vinyl.
------------------ :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: San Francisco :: :: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner ::
Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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