posted
A discussion I had with a fellow signwriter today: cutting vinyl has taken over a big chunk of what was formerly done by brush, thats' a fact of life. The question is, will digital printing do the same with cut vinyl? I don't use large format printing so I'm not in a position to really know. What are your thoughts?
------------------ Gray M. Hodge Cam River Signs Somerset, Tasmania.
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IMHO, I think Digital Printing will do the same as vinyl did for hand painting, Mostly take it over. I think there will always be Hand Lettering, Vinyl and Digital Printing, but in the future digital printing will carry most of the work load.
------------------ Troy Haas "Metal_Leg" on mIRC
SAM Signs & RPM Auto Graphix 931 W. Columbia street Evansville,Indiana 47710 812-437-5367 Home of the: "Brush Fire at the Hose House" Letterhead Meet April 27-29th,2001
"Chaos, panic, disorder - my work here is done."
Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Something that I really dislike about alot of the digital printed stuff is the plastic backgrounds. Accepting plastic letters seems artificial enough for my taste. Covering the side of a bus with a photo is OK, but what about on a sign for a small shop that is trying to appeal to the buyer that wants some personal attention? Don't they deserve painted letters designed with a pencil?
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Digital vinyl prints still need a contour cut around the border or individual letters.
Cutting vinyl will always be part of the process of sign making.
What will happen is the complete merger of sign shops and printing shops for basic sign work. Corporations and factories will have their own in-house printing and sign production department.
Neon, high rise lighted signs and landscaped yard signs will be still be here for some time to come, with some neat new LED features to replace the lights. LED lighting is easy to work with, unlike neon.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yes I do believe vinyl cutting as a main stream will become obsolete, God I hope so. Digital printing will be the next mainstream lettering medium.
Like Dave said, vinyl cutting will still be needed for some jobs but I'm sure there won't be a revival of vinyl coroplast signs ( yuk )
We'll be having weeding parties just to remember what it was like to have vinyl stuck to your fingers, have an x-acto take off the tip of your finger and get a fat A** sitting in front of a monitor all day.
Yah bring back the days of 1/4" Times roman cut on a 4B. God I love the smell of adhesive.
Like the painters of yesteryear the vinyl jockeys of today will someday feel the wrath of progress.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with all of you. I use a colorcamm more and more to print AND cut lettering and graphics. I'm in the process of putting together a large-format inkjet setup, because, i believe that down the road, we'll be printing more and more signs with lettering AND photo-quality backgrounds. I think that the actual production of signs will get more and more into design/layout. THAT'S where the $$$$ will be. DESIGN a sign, then hit PRINT. While it's printing, DESIGN another one. NO MORE FREE DESIGNING!!!!! The ONLY problem to overcome with INKJET is DURABILITY. BUT.....I'd be happy with 3-yr. TRUE durability! I don't want my stuff to last TOO LONG!! I want those RE-ORDERS.
------------------ Bob Burns Bob Burns Signs
1619 Oregon Ave. Prescott, Az 86305 1-520-778-5879
Posts: 2121 | From: Prescott, Arizona, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Check out Roland.. they have the leg up on the printing competition..
They have thermal printer/cutters..
They have inkjet printers/cutters..
Printing and cutting in ONE unit, no matter which ink system you choose to go with.
As long as digital printing is around, there will always be a need for cut vinyl.. There has to be vinyl around to print on, and not every job can have a rectanglular shape.. otherwise we'd be really limited to what we can do if we couldn't cut a contour.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Here's ANOTHER good point.... With digital printing, you need only stock ONE COLOR of vinyl.....WHITE!!! Of course, there are numerous other media you can print on with an inkjet.....paper; banner material; art canvas/paper, etc. I guess we're gonna be in the PRINTING biz as much as the SIGN biz!!!
------------------ Bob Burns Bob Burns Signs
1619 Oregon Ave. Prescott, Az 86305 1-520-778-5879
Posts: 2121 | From: Prescott, Arizona, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It may be the way the bis is going but I will fight it tooth and nail. I hate the look of digital printing. My brush doesn't paint in half tones. I guess if all your in it for is money then that is the way to go. I got into the sign bis because my passion for the art. Maybe I will be a sign-a-saus and die with the rest, I don't know. But that digital stuff just doesn't do it for me.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Regardless of the future sign production trends...sure would be nice to see great design come back. It seems the easier the process of actually MAKING a sign, the more people there are that attempt to completely skip the design step.
Guess I'm showing my age in remembering the days when a better layout would win the job, not just the price.
------------------ Don Coplen aka "SaintPete" Coplen Designs St.Petersburg, FL dcoplen@mindspring.com
Co-Conspirator (with Bill Modzel and Dave Sherby) of the unofficial Letterville Adobe Illustrator Support Group & coffee house.
If any Letterville Adobe Illustrator users need any help, feel free to email any of the three of us and we will help out as best we can.
posted
Dave is most certainly right NO printing will never take over vinyl there's a big price difference between the two.A great deal of you complain about customers saying your to high,how in the world would you explain the increase for printing? There's always going to be a market for vinyl,I don't believe printing will ever be done at 33 cents a running ft.(our cost)I offer in house digital printing by a ColorCamm PC60 & a Encad 600.Vinyl is very cheap & as you should all know cheap is always IN.There's always going to be people who want simple,cheap signage.
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Dave D - neon isnt difficult, its like painting by numbers. All you need is a little info on loadings and a decent guy to make your sections/units. As for the digital print vs vinyl lettering vs brush debate, I look at it like this... Nail guns, circular saws and all those other goodies have been around for how long? Ever seen a carpenter without a hammer hanging next to his nailbag and a hand saw in his ute?
David
------------------ David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Signwriting Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com
Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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You got it all wrong!!!! Throw the substrate under the 4x8 table jet printer... doesn't matter the background, prints Paint, All the colors, CMYK. "Yo, you like this one, photo, lettering, ooo, the split shade is nice!!! great, (now I just push "PRINT"), come back in a half hour and pick up yer 4x8". I am sure someone is working on something like this. I just wish it was me to have the patent on the process. And their just waiting for everyone to have a big expensive plotter (or 2, or 3) to replace!!!!
The sign trade had never created such huge amounts of trash as since vinyl. How much trash do You create in a week???? I worked for a commercial shop in California, i personally created 5 barrels of backing, app tape, and weedingd trash in a single day!! Better hope greenpeace doesn't find out.
I would love to work in the back of someones shop, just pushing a brush all day... I remember a time. eh Crazy Jack! da good old days....
------------------ Bill'n'Annie Davidson Now in Oz, for keeps, she always has been, i'm new here.. & love it! Sylvania, NSW, Aust. coupa@planet.net.au Email me if you need some help on a big job, or little one....
Posts: 309 | From: Heathcote, NSW, Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't even think we've seen the tip of the iceberg. Everything will one day be digital substrates. At the click of a button, the complete side of a building will change to a new advertiser. Signs will be made of special materials that have a frequency in them much like a cell phone. You'll be able to turn on your computer, throw together a quick layout in Corel version 100 and upload it to that real estate sign you sold a couple months ago. It will become increasingly hard to make money because Johhny Customer down the street is gonna be able to do all this himself.
Don't ask me how we're gonna digitaly change a sandblasted sign because I haven't drawn up the plans yet. We I do though, you people will be the first to know. Consider yourselves lucky because you're gonna be making millions selling these device to all your customers.
But wait, there's more. When the auto-manufacturers get a hold of my next digitally controlled paint, a whole new game is gonna begin. Imagine what this technology is gonna open up. You want to drive a red car today? No problem. You want a vehicle wrap tomorrow? No problem. How about your kids pictures on the car the next day?
Man am I gonna make alot of money! I'll be like the Bill Gates of the Auto Industry because this technology will definitely be patented. All the Manufacturers and body shops are gonna have to pay me even to use this stuff. Well, now that I think about it, forget about my digital substrate idea.....it's all in the paint!!!
------------------ Bruce Evans Chromark Design-A-Sign Covina , CA bruce@chromark.net
Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I agree with Dave Draper.....soon most large companies will have their own in house sign shop. It is already happening. I also agree with Don Coplen. Remember the days when your handlettered banner was a hit because it looked nice instead of being a hit because of the cheap price? It has become a throw away society.
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I believe that those of us who are, obviously, currently embracing the internet age are the ones that will benefit the most.
Think about it..we have access to "old style fonts"..we have "new age technology"..we have access to all the tips, tricks, advice that we need, whether it be about tried and true traditional techniques, computer techniques, or business techniques.
The folks who haven't "embraced" (sp?) the "internet" are the ones who will eventually pass by the wayside. And those are the folks who resisted the transition towards "vinyl" and computer generated "art/signs" too.
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
posted
I finally learned the old adage "never say never" I remember in the mid seventies my neice and her soon to be husband visited me at my shop. He was going to college to be a computer programmer. While I was lettering I uttered " well, they'll NEVER get a computer to do signs!" Boy did those words taste like crap a few years later. I can remember seeing the early work the first gerber machines turned out, letterspacing so bad sometimes one word looked like two. They'll NEVER get that to work right. Oh well, at last they'll NEVER get it to do airbrushed effects. Well at least pinstriping is safe, they'll NEVER figure that one out. I give it a few years and the plotter will get used as much as a beta max or an eight track. They WILL get the durability figured out and they WILL get the prices down. And unfortunately some fools will give away all sorts of special effects and run the pricing of the digitals down much in the same way they have the vinyl.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Each method has its strengths and weaknesses. Neither will totally replace the other. As someone who does all three - handlettering, vinyl, & digital - I don't think it really matters as long as Good Design is the desired and final result.
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In a few years, Ron Popeil will be selling the Sign-o-matic in his infomercials. Not only will you be able to cut your own hair and make your own pasta, but you can have your daughter make your signs for you! I can hardly wait. Vic G
posted
Any way you look at it, no matter what the substrate.. no matter what the process.. if your business fails, it's nobody's fault but your own.. not the guy down the street selling full color laminated prints at 15 cents a square.
You control your business and if you can't stick with the trends or keep people interested in what you already do well, you will fail.
There's nothing wrong with digital printing in signage.
Would you walk into a restaurant that has 150 menu items, and propose a carved redwood or HDU menuboard, complete with interchangeable prices and food items for the entire menu list? Nope, don't think so. That's not the place for that kind of signage.
On the flipside, I wouldnt walk into a luxury home development office and propose a 3'x60' digital print of gold letters on a brick or stone background. That's not the place for *that* kind of signage.
So, you're still the professional and need to offer what your customers need.. forget what they want, you have to educate them so they know whether their choices in signage are really up for the job.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by cheryl nordby: It has become a throw away society.
The nature of digital output is a boon, for those of us who produce "disposable signage". I oversee the in-house sign shop for a beer distributor. We have 4 NovaJets, 4 Summa cutters, 2 color lasers, and a couple of Xyron laminators. For the average package/price banner, I'm lucky if the sign stays up for 2 weeks. For everything else, 2-4 months would be pushing it.
Granted, when I started putting the sign shop together 8 years ago, it was with the intention of eliminating hand-written signs, produced by our driver/salesmen, altogether. Trust me, if you had seen your handwriting, you would fully understand. I started with the tools I had available; the drawing module of Harvard Graphics for DOS and a LaserJet. From there I went to a Summa cutter/plotter and CorelDRAW. We went digital shortly thereafter. Then Anheuser-Busch followed the lead of it's more advanced wholesalers, establishing a website for distributing pre-made templates.
To be honest, we don't want an artist in our sign shop. We want someone who can crank out banners, which we provide to our retailers at no charge. "Quantity with Quality" has become the motto of our sign shop. Understanding how to properly utilize white space and how not to mangle a font is nice, but the ultimate focus is "get the space before Miller does". Driver/Salesmen earn points, depending on how many computer-generated signs they place in accounts.
Although I consider myself to be a graphic artist, I cannot draw a circle or a straight line to save my life. I started with an Apple II+ many moons ago. The computer is both brush and canvas.
Mind you, I lack both the intention and the means, to "steal" business from local sign shops. None were producing beer signs for our accounts, before we were. The majority of what I produce are banners, table tents, counter cards, and cooler stickers, all relating to the sale of our products. I do not create beer banners for outdoor use, as that is illegal in North Carolina.
------------------ Daniel Craig Greensboro, NC dcraig@rhbarringer.com
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