posted
I had an interesting question of business practce and ethics come my way last week.
An old friend from out West called to tell me a story and ask my opinion. Some weeks ago, he did a job as a subcontractor for an ad agency. Because he had a previous relationship with the agency, and because the job was a high-paying, high profile sign for a major corporation, AND the arrangements were made absolutely last minute, he went in an did the work without going through the usual channels,i.e., signed work order/deposit. The usual BS ensued regarding payment - excuses, the agency avoiding his calls - for several weeks, then the agency called to tell him his check was in the mail, everyone loved the work, and would he do it again? Once again, the deadline was a last-minute, had-to-be-done-by-yesterday routine, but having been burned once, he demanded a signed contract and deposit from the agency, before agreeing to the work. After almost a week of further delays and excuses, he received partial payment for the original job, and by the way, you are coming back to do this again on Monday, right? Answer: Not without a contract and a deposit! He gave the agency until Friday at 5pm to sign and return his contract; they did not. So he informed them he would not be available to do the work on Monday.
By now he was thoroughly disgusted with the agency, so he called a contact at the corporation for whom the work was being done, explaining why he would not be available to perform the work on Monday. At first the corporation indicated they might contract with him directly; the next day they called to say they could not, because they already had a contract with the ad agency. Then the agency called (at 9am on Sunday morning) telling him they couldn't sign HIS contract because THEY didn't have a signed contract with the corporation! But they STILL wanted him to do the work on Monday! He refused, stating once again: No contract, no deposit equals no work. What part of no didn't they understand?
By now, my friend has caught the whiff of some highly putrid dealings between the corporation and the ad agency, and has wisely washed his hands of the whole mess. When he called on Monday to tell me this whole unpleasant story, it was seemed to me that the game was to get this work done and not pay for it, and that either the ad agency or the corporation was lying through their teeth. My suspicions are with the ad agency (having had consistently bad experiences with ad agencies myself), but I though I'd offer this up to the folks at Letterville for other opinions. The basic question is: When two opposing sides of a dispute are telling you a different story, who do you trust, if anyone?
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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SAM Signs & RPM Auto Graphix 931 W. Columbia street Evansville,Indiana 47710 812-437-5367 Home of the: "Brush Fire at the Hose House" Letterhead Meet April 27-29th,2001
"Chaos, panic, disorder - my work here is done."
Posts: 1100 | From: Evansville,Indiana, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
hey cam, i would say the one to trust would be the ad agency(the customer who ordered the intial sign. but since i have done work with ad agencies before i would say "don't trust them!"
i used to do tons of work for a local agency, they always gave me tough deadlines, and after 30 days i would call them up and ask when i could expect payment? their answer most of the time was, we have not billed the customer yet, as soon as we bill the customer we will pay you!.
(what would the power company say if i told them this?) LOL
after about 3 years of this nonsense i decided not to do anymore business with ad agencies.
their business and slow payment practices are not missed.
posted
At the moment I am rather pissed off so I would say......only trust the companies you have done work for previously that PAY! I made some banners for a day care center....same thing......rush job. hurry hurry. Well the check bounced. I called to tell her...she said to go 'try it again'. I agreed. Nope.....no funds available. Went back to her and said I need cash and need it by today at 8:00am. Well guess what.......the bit## wasn't there. WHY DID THEY ORDER THEIR FRICKING BANNERS IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY?? And she seemed so sweet.......yeah right. I am sticking with my old customers. They may take 30+ days to pay....but at least I know they will. Everytime you try to be nice you get kicked in the butt.
posted
Trust no one, and to thine own self be true...sometimes I don't even trust myself. Especially when there's chocolate in the house. Cheryl, right now I'm owed about $1,000 from various "old" clients whom I trusted, who always paid upon delivery...love- JILL
------------------ Jill M. Welsh
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Been operating my own buiss.for over 24 years(3) actually in that time period. One lesson is the hardest to learn; QUIT TRUSTING PEOPLE OVER MONEY ISSUES!!!
I think some of the NICEST people are the best liars, I guess(like anything else you do on a "regular basis") these people do it so WELL, cause they do it all the time !!!
It makes me very angry with myself, cause I buy their bull*#^*, even when I know I should not.
Oh well, I will keep on tryin to learn that lesson I guess.
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
posted
After a while in this business, and when you've been screwed in every way possible, you get so that you have a "nose for bad customers". Ad agencys are no different. They may be able to deliver a significant amount of business to you, but it's ALWAYS a rush, rush , ASAP situation.
We had one a while back who used to give us lots of work, and their last order with us was for a number of banners promoting a relatively new, fledgelling airline which promptly went bankrupt. By coincidence, our invoice for those banners was a few days overdue when this client of theirs made the bankruptcy announcement. I called their accounts payable dept. that same day inquiring as to when I could pick up our cherque for those banners. I was told that their comptroller was reviewing the expenses that they'd incurred in servicing that account, and that when this was determined, we'd be notified as to what percentage of our invoice that they would pay us.
I went straight to the Small Claims Court, and filed a claim for full amount of our invoice, and personally served them that same day...something they didn't expect would happen. As it turned out, we were paid in full for our invoice, and we were the ONLY ONES who were...all others were paid a percentage. I found their stance to be totally unethical, in that they fully expected their suppliers to absorb the losses that THEY incurred in dealing with this "fly-by-night" airline.
We also received no further orders from these pirates, and I've heard through the grapevine that they've characterized us as being "hardasses to deal with".
For that, I have no regrets whatsoever, as it will discourage and dissuade others from calling us with the intent of screwing us out of monies honestly earned and justly due.
------------------ Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail kjmlhenry@home.
Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.
posted
Cam, After going to court a couple of times (and winning) I always look at the job from the judges point of view, hum. . . . no agreement of the minds, no contract, no deposit. I've run into a lot of business that are on their last leg, they seem to want to advertise when they desperate! ALWAYS GET DEPOSIT! John Arnott
------------------ John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 444-SIGN signgraphics1@aol.com
Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Is it just an artist thing or what? I have been screwed on payment too many times to mention (I guess that's my fault)... all because I was being a nice, trusting guy. I can relate to all of you in this situation.
They (the rip-offs) think 'cuz we're artists that, "it is too much fun, how can we charge so much to do pretty pictures or graphics, etc."
I'm trying hard not to be such a wimp/nice guy when it comes to money matters but it's just my nature I guess (to trust everyone).But hey, I'm learning from y'all and I really appreciate you sharing your years of experience. Thanks!!
------------------
Posts: 268 | From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Here's my take Cam, I'm not sure it was appropriate for your friend to contact the corporation directly. I think if the ad agency knew he did that they'd be miffed - kind of going behind their backs. Unless he asked permission to contact them or at least said he intended to do it. As a rule if I hire a sub, he's to stay anonymous to the end client. It's MY job. Other mitigating circumstances you didn't mention might influence the 'rightness' of the contact, but it sounded odd when I first read it.
Yes, it seems like somebody is trying to screw somebody. I'd suspect the agency was the culprit here. Having worked at an ad agency, it would be highly unlikely for them to do ANYTHING without a contract and fee structure - all hours are billable and all products are marked up. In a reputable agency, cost is usually not a big factor as it's not their money and the more a thing costs, the more thay can tack on. I rather like working for (reputable) agencies because of this 'play money' effect. Usually the quality of the final product is the primary factor - just the way I like it.
Now, having said that, agencies are also incredibly ineffecient organizations, run by groups of people who each know a little bit of the story. They know a little about a large number of things. Collectively, as time goes on, they know less and less about more and more till eventually they know nothing about everything.
They are only humans after all. I had an agency pay twice for the same job last year. When I discovered it and sent them a refund check with a letter explaining their double payment, I never heard a word from them, "Gosh, thanks for catching that", "Thanks for being honest", nothing. Maybe they're confused. Maybe there's politics involved where someone is trying to make points or save face. Heads could have rolled over a flub like that. There's a fair amount of infighting and backstabbing going on in agencies. But nothing is EVER done without a contract. That was BS.
posted
Lately I dont trust many people at all. I guess i am finally learning. We have a customer who we have done various jobs for, in the last couple of years. From day one they always waited till the last minute to order, and took thier sweet time paying. Sometimes as long as 90 days. The last job we did was about $2000.00. We got the deposit and delivered in a week. With the understanding we would be paid the balance upon reciept. Guess i never should have left the signs because we still havent been paid. 2 Months late. After calling and talking to the accounts payable guy, he told me how they operate. Get this, they work with 10-15 different sign companies. And the company that gets the work is the one they dont owe money to. He proceded to tell me that our $1600 balance was the least owed between 12 sign companies. This is a theme/entertainment park, and has events every weekend that need signage. The think that really sucks is they always need tons of signs, but cant do them if they dont pay. This customer is now on 100% deposit! What a joke.
posted
Offering you new work in lieu of paying you for old work is one of the basic scams used by every good con artist. They know you want ongoing business and they are counting on your hunger to do the next job without being paid for the first.
Anytime you call for payment and get a speech about how much work they have coming up and you are going to get it, well, you are going to get IT, the shaft, and not your money. This pitch is right there with "the check is in the mail" and "I'll respect you in the morning"
I had one guy that strung me me out until we sued him. He called the accountant in such a display of righteous indignation over our obvious error, that she actually apologized to him. I told her to call him back and tell him to send over copies of his cancelled checks and we would drop everything. After all of that he paid the bill. This guy has buckets of money. What a thief!
------------------ Victor Georgiou AnchorBlanks.com Jack Wills Clipart CD's Designs Cut to Any Size Serving the Trade Only
Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I see an interesting, similar, scenario here..
The customers who need it "NOW" are the ones who don't pay "NOW".
Kinda makes you wonder?
I only have about $7000 on the books in recievables right now..oldest one is about 45 days..customer for about 5 years..I'll get paid as usual..THEY are never in a real hurry, whether they are ordering or paying.
I have another customer who is ALWAYS in a hurry..I used to invoice and get paid at the completion of the job..within the space of a trip to the local coffee shop.. now I just hang onto the invoices until they add up to somewhere around $1000 and then hand them in, go fer a coffee, and come back and pick up a check.
Either I live a charmed life, know how to "screen" customers, or I am just plain lucky..who knows?
I DO!!!!!!! I "screen" customers!!!!
I can smell a scam artist a mile away! They talk too smooth, they have BIG PLANS, they LOOK flashy, they wear "fancy" clothes... I can smell em as soon as the phone up!!!!!!!! (Yep I can smell em over the phone!!!!!)
I guess that is what 25 years of self employment has done to me..I can see a "NO-PAY" guy a mile away!
25 years of self employment and only about $1500 in bad accounts!!!!!! ($1200 in the first couple of years, I learned fast!!!!!) I am a happy camper!
GOD BLESS FREE ENTERPRISE
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
posted
The story as I understand it is that this is a very small, "mom and pop" agency, working for a mega-large corporation, whose name I've agreed not to mention. My friend seems to think the agency bought into doing this work on the promise of more to come, and was hired primarily because the big, professional ad agency that does all the rest of their promos and graphics was at a loss on how to do this one. Whatever. The lesson learned (I hope) was don't trust people who won't play buy the rules - money talks, BS walks. I'm just glad to have sat this out as a spectator!
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've never not got paid, must be my N.Y. accent. I may be a brother of the brush but I am also an ol'brother of the bike.......
------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something new........ http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
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