posted
Time for some sign realted topics that others can learn from
After reading this suggestion in another post by our Mayor Steve, I thought I'd start this one off, seeing as I had a similar experience recently.
Before computers in my shop the only way to transfer a design or a logo onto a sign was either to draw it free hand or use an opaque projector and blow it up to scale on the sign or a paper pattern.
Then we would paint it.
Currently we are working on a larger sign 10'x12' in our garage. The letters in the main copy break the "square" boundaries so we needed to cut them out of the dibond face,
I made a computer pounce pattern, and used computer cut masking for when we sprayed the blend in the letters.
Now that we are in the outlining and painting the drop shadow stage of the lettering I realized that I had wasted a lot of money on masking.
I should have just used my projector to blow up the lettering, mark it out on the sign, cut my shape and then tape of the area for spraying.
at least we are painting the outlines and shadows, I can't imaging buying all that vinyl.
Sometimes the old ways are better & faster.
do you still use your projector? for what & why?
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
After rereading my post I just want to state that this is not a paint versus vinyl thing just finding a better solution to the problem and cutting costs.
Like Steve said some new shops don't know about overhead projectors, pounce patterns and painting.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
We use ours whenever it has to be film and it's a 1 shot deal over 30" that requires there be no seam.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
We call it , being "Trapped in the box" it's so easy to get trapped there after day in day out usage...
I think there is a turning point for everyone when it dawns on them there "has to be a better way" it came for me about 2 years into the "box", from that day on I haven't cut any vinyl letters over 8" tall...(the reason?) economics... I can "mask cut and roll" or spray letters faster and at less expense than the computer can.And you can't tell them apart. Another bonus...they outlast vinyl by a good 5 years.(I have signs up that are well over 10 and 12 years old) using this method.
I still project when it makes sense and enjoy it very much.But the thing I enjoy the most is "Thinking outside the box" and knowing that there is still room for the old skills...Which by the way was the original inspiration for the Letterhead movement.
"KEEP THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX" "I guarantee you'll profit from it!
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
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Monte.....Just for the record...what do you use for the "MASK" ? when you cut and roll. In the REAL Early days we used brown Kraft paper and Rubber Cement,Cut out the letters ,applied to the surface and sprayed the background, and then outlined the letters with a quill. (This method used mainly on Neon Signs)
posted
Arvil... I use the same thing everyone uses as tranfer paper for vinyl letters...The largest roll I use is 24" because I can handle it alone easily enough and if I am masking a rough surface (Textured - Corrugated - Riveted)I use a Liquid mask like "Spraylat" which can be applied with a spraygun roller or even a brush.
Werks fe me it'll werk fer you"
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
posted
I've seen this done by airbrushers using transfer paper - I've never used it myself - only roll frisket (for very small) or lining paper with photo spray adheisive - but then I'm really a low-tech person. I'm guessing that it is much the same. Jon Butterworth has done some nice murals using the projector method. He explained to me on chat how he does it - I haven't had a chance to try it out myself yet.
------------------ "Every time I paint a portrait, I lose a friend" - John Sargent
Karen Tighe, Strandhill, Sligo in the Wild Wet West of Ireland.
mIRC = cafe_cruiser
Posts: 238 | From: Great Britain | Registered: May 2000
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posted
While building my new shop(which is still not complete) I have people asking why I have no windows in the shop area. So I can dim the lights, and use my projector in the day time.
------------------ Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.
Posts: 2289 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Yep....! good ole' projectors....I bought mine in about 77. Still have it> it was the first big purchase for my sign shop. I was so excited when I bought it.
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Hello Bob, Thanks for posting one of my favorite topics. I now choose to work without a computer and I work mostly on the road doing fancy hand lettering. My artograph lives in the space behind the seat in my pickup truck (usually under my golf clubs). And I rely on the projector for all sorts of layout needs. It is probably my most valuable tool next to my favorite scharff #4 brown quill. When I first started lettering and was still learning letter form, I used the projector constantly in order to get sharp, clean letters...from perfect helvetica to custom logos. My competition thought I owned a computer long before I bought one.
Bruce
------------------ Bruce Deveau 331 Main St. Amesbury, Ma USA 01913 pop04667@tiac.net
Posts: 139 | From: Amesbury, MA USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I use my Opaque projector for anything that I receive from a customer as printed "art work" Use the overhead projector for transparentcies from my puter layouts.BOTH for paper patterns.I letter a lot of walls and like Monte,when mask is needed I roll Spraylat and hand cut.Clean up with outlines. Hope this helps
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Using our Edge and a cost of $3.40 per square foot for materials (foil and vinyl) that sign would cost our shop around $400 plus wood and installation time. If we could do part of the job with cut vinyl, the cost would decrease. If we did the whole job with paint, we would have no free time to get other work done. 100% of our time would be spent on that one job. So, whatever we made on that sign would be ALL that we would make for that time period. Also, if the job were ever repeated, we would have a much easier time with the next one as opposed to having to completely do it again "by hand". I think if you factor in everything, the machine beats the human almost every time. There will be times when it is faster to do a "one off" by hand, but in the long run doing it on the computer is your best choice for most jobs. We actually intended on using our computer ONLY for patterns when we first got it back in 1987. That was a great idea, but we learned that even those old, slow 286s were faster and better than we were.
------------------ Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B 650-588-0490 fontking1a@aol.com
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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I totally see your point Louis, but The Edge graphics would fail misserably as this sign is in constant sun light, high wind and the customer had been burned by a shady sign company before ( his MDO sign didn't even last 3 years ) Foils have a 5 year max and I don't believe the red would actually last that long. We used House of Kolor Urethanes for the blended letters. Granted I failed to include this information, but it is relavent. We have an Edge and that route was ruled out in the first thinking stages. And yes we are charging accordingly for our services. just in case.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited May 07, 2001).]
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Steve:I use BOTH the opaque & the over projectors as needed depending on type of art work used.pre printed on paper as opposed to ink jet on transparencies
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Sounds like you got a handle on it! Why not do the sign as you plan...but do a small Edge print with your shop name in the lower corner..in red....and see how the two compare as the years go by?
------------------ Louis A. Lazarus Milt's Sign Service, Inc. 20 So. Linden Ave. #5B 650-588-0490 fontking1a@aol.com
Posts: 560 | From: El Granada, CA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
This is a fantastic topic! I've only been at this for 9 mos. and originally planned on doing vinyl only. After being introduced to Letterville I have been inspired to do much more. I am almost 55 and can't hand letter so I had given up on the idea of making "real" signs. I do realize that I do not possess the talent that most of you have been blessed with but nevertheless I want to paint signs. I can do some simple murals as long as they do not incorporate lettering! I WILL purchase an overhead now. Are there any tricks and tips I need to know first? And Pat, if I haven't figured it out by Sept. could someone help me with it at the "Duck Soup" meet? My work will never touch you guys, but if my butt doesn't hit a rocking chair first I plan on being at least fair to middling!
------------------ Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454 PH. (504)386-3313 casey@i-55.com
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist.
Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Louis that is a good Idea, I think I'll do that.
In reference to an overhead or Opaque projector, I now use just an Opaque projector, I first started with an overhead and transparencies, which works well because you don't have to turn the whole shop dark to use the projector, But I borrowed that on and has since been returned.
So I found a guy who wanted to unload an Opaque projector, it was the kind we used to have in school, it will take a whole 8 1/2 x 11" sheet and I can throw any art work into it without the added cost of transparencies.
The great thing is these old projectors are a real steal if you an find one, I got mine for $50.00 and I couldn't get my wallet out fast enough.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited May 09, 2001).]
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
folks, just remember to let your opeque fan run until its cool before you shut it off completly. it saves the bulb, which gets very hot and are very expencive.
------------------ David Overholt RunningDog Artworks 210 Cedar St Pemberville, Ohio aka, doc
(OK when throwing away an old one) When installing a new one wrap it in a paper towel - oil from your fingers will cause a hot spot on the bulb and cause early failure. The present bulb has been in use in mine for over 20 years. Also I've been told not to roll it around as it is cooling down after use. I have a bumpy shop floor.
I use my 'puter to make layouts on paper, enlarge with my trusty OLD Spotlight, and alter the alphabets to suit.
I bought an overhead model at a surplus store for $85.00, but have only used it a couple times. The advantage is much brighter light. OK, so I wait 'til dark to enlarge.
------------------ "If it isn't fun, why do it?" Signmike@aol.com Mike Languein Doctor of Letters BS, MS, PhD ___________________
You know what BS is, MS is More of the Same, and it's Piled Higher and Deeper here
posted
Outside the box.I like your way of thinking,I always use the projector,both opaque & overhead,much faster for me especially since I don't even do vinyl.Keep on paint'n !
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