I would like your opinions on the articles you read in the various sign magazines: Sign of the Times, Sign Business, Signcraft, and Sign Builder Illustrated.
Do you mainly look at the “eye candy” and skip the story?
Do you find some articles take forever to get to the point, cover useless information, or are worded so you can’t figure out what the writer is talking about?
I recently bought the book “100 Ways To Improve Your Writing” by Gary Provost, and after reading much of it, started reading sign magazine aticles from the last couple of years. Except for the articles contributed by professional writers, most of the articles violate every rule in the book! I realize professional sign people are not professional writers, and that is why there are magazine editors to “fix” the story. Still, I’m finding a lot of "screwed up" articles!
Tell me what you think.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited March 18, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well Dave, I on the other hand find some articles written by the artist themselves to be more exact with less hoppla than a professional writer. However, some of the How-To's are blatently useless in the real world as to when a writer or editor gets hold of it and chops it up.
As far as persons violating every rule in the book, some things are hard to understand do to that persons understanding of how this or that is actually done.
So do tell Dave, why is it that a professional writer can delete most of what it is that is important in an article and still get the heads up from his editor?
posted
I find that many articles are purposely vague, because the signmaker being showcased would rather not reveal exactly how a project was completed. A big part of being competitive relies on having knowledge that your competitor does not, so I think specifics are guarded. My pet peeve with many of the sign magazines is when they do show a step by step, but somehow forget to include a picture of the finished product! And, while I'm at it, I never rely on the so-called product reviews. Remember, these magazines get their revenue from the very manufacturers of these products.
------------------ Tim Whitcher Quality Signs & Design 107 E Adrian St Blissfield, MI 49228 qualitysigns@cass.net
Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Dave.....at times the articles are edited quite a bit and end up not being how the 'writer' intended them to be. What also happens is you proof read the story....but you don't know which pictures they decide to put in.....and sometimes the pictures tell the whole story...so without the proper pictures, the story is pretty much uninteresting. ------------------ surf or MoJo on mirc Cheryl J Nordby Signs by Cheryl (206) 300-0153 Seattle WA.....! signsbycheryl@hotmail.com A day without sunshine is like, you know...nighthttp://signsbycheryl.homestead.com/home.html http://mojosignco.homestead.com/home.html
From sharp minds come sharp products
[This message has been edited by cheryl nordby (edited March 18, 2001).]
posted
Magazines have to reach a broad scope of readers. If you find half of a magazine interesting, then the magazine is doing a pretty good job. Somewhere out there is a reader who finds the other half interesting. For instance, I do not read articles about the craft of pinstriping. Yes,it is beautiful, and yes, it is an incredible talent, but my business is not in that direction so the articles are not of huge interest.
I like the variety of writing styles that appear in the magazines. If all of it were reduced to technical writing, the mags would be dull indeed.
Most people find writing to be hard work and something they do not want to do. I think we should just be happy that signmakers are giving it a try. Vic G
------------------ Victor Georgiou Bob Loves Signs Inc Danville, CA email blssign@pacbell.net
[This message has been edited by VICTORGEORGIOU (edited March 18, 2001).]
Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
The one thing that I find is that the Artist SignPerson Airbrush Head.
Never tell thier price on finished articles, and never gives a break down on all the time from start to finish!
Now in some articles in Airbrush Mags for the "In Mall Stores" Yes they do...(T-Shirts Jackets) But on custom works (Vehicles or Cycles or helmets or Leather or Exterior or Interior Signs.. You never see the finished price or time and material break down.. Unless it one of the "Articles of what would you charge?" The Eye Candy is nice!! but the full breakdown from materials to labour to time and delivery is more important....
Sure these pieces are in the Mag because the product is of the best workmanship and materials are of the best quality..
But I still like to cross examine the facts to were I live and were the project was done.
------------------ Raven/2001 Airbrushed by Raven Lower Sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
[This message has been edited by Stephen Deveau (edited March 18, 2001).]
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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Joey, I think a professional writer that covers a story on a sign guy should have the story reviewed by that sign guy, to make sure all information is presented properly.
As for Sign guys submitting their own articles, I find the layout of the story, the introduction, the body, and the conclusion not in alignment. Even with the editors help, it comes out somewhat goofy.
One article I read from a 1999 magazine took over 200 words to describe the writer's experiences as he walked to and from a sign convention....the article was suppose to be on techinical advances in the sign industry. He smelled the air, he looked at his watch, his cell phone rang, he stepped on gum, yada yada yada... (just useless words to fill a page )
This is what I'm talking about. Exciting introductions to spark your imgaination, informative issues and step by steps told with easy to understand wording, logical in development and concluded properly.
Are you finding these things?
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave, quite a few years ago, a "human interest" writer from the South Bend Tribune (Indiana) wrote a story about a carved sign project I was working on for a local exotic car dealer. It turned out to be a full page story in the Sunday morning paper.
What was cool was that the reporter came back and asked me to proofread the story before it was sent to the editor. I was glad she did, as there were a number of errors (terminology mostly) that I was able to catch. She was pleased, the story was published, and I had the bonus and making a new friendship that has lasted over 15 years.
------------------ Don Coplen aka "SaintPete" Coplen Designs St.Petersburg, FL dcoplen@mindspring.com
posted
Perhaps this should be an all new post, but it seems relevant to the conversation.
My very favorite sign author is Bob Trogman, who calls himself Dr Type, and writes for A&E (Awards and Engraving Magazine). As his nickname suggests, he writes about typestyles, and his style might be described as "This is right (Illustration) - this is wrong (illustration) - this is why (explanation)" The man knows his stuff, and his writing format with illustrations makes his point totally clear.
They have another columnist called the Masked Engraver, who really gets down to the basics of running an engraving machine effectively.
Having said that, my favorite sign Magazine is still SignCraft because of its down to earth hands on approach to sign making.
I have more, but the bride is pushing me out the door. Hasta! Vic G
------------------ Victor Georgiou Bob Loves Signs Inc Danville, CA email blssign@pacbell.net
Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hi Dave,I do have favor certain articles over others due to the fact that I like the author,... perhaps his style ,straightfowardness,lack of "big words". Perhaps it has to do my education, or lack of. Some authors in Sign Mags try to entertain while some are arrogant Others are tentative, some just boring. I don't care about Body/ Intoduction/ Proper writing ettiquette and so forth. I am interested in content/information in a way i can understand it. The Late Great Mike Stevens who influenced so many was a great Signman, and probably did all the right things when it came to writing as well, but everytime I read his stuff I would have to re-read over to try and understand what he was saying. And his Video was a real yawner, but a great learnig tool. I know he tried to elevate the "simple-signman" to a higher graphic concious, but hey,...some of us like simple. So if I want the other I'll go buy a good book. I too think that the Sign Mags and the contributors "miss the boat" when it comes to pricing the jobs featured, after all, at any Letterhead Meet and many Bullboard Topics one of the most popular topics is pricing. Signmaking isnt "rocket-science" and so what can you expect from these contributors. Even here on "Bullboard" so much gets mis-interpreted. The written just does not come accross the same to everybody. I do like the eye-candy,but I really like to "spot" something in a pic or article that refers to some "bread n' butter" work, or to see a nicely executed clean-Block Letter (I guess it doesn't take much for me). I do appreciate those step-by-steps and the Sign Mags as they're were such a needed part of my education in this industry. "I cut my teeth on SignCraft".
------------------ Rich Stebbing #945 RichSigns Rohnert Park CA
Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Pricing. Oh, boy. Most of you probably do want to see the writer explain what he charged for the job he is showing off in the article.
I can't speak for the other writers, so I'll paint a target on my shirt and let you start shooting at me!
Putting a price on a sign that is featured in a magazine is a black hole I don't want to enter. It is a "no win situation" that will ruin the writer's credibility in a heart beat. WHY?
33 per cent of the readers will accuse the writter of ripping the customer off.
33 per cent of the readers will agree with the writer.
33 per cent will scorn the writer for not charging enough.
The writter will anger almost 70 per cent of his peers. A writer is not effective if he is not likeable.
However, there is a creative way to avoid stating the price and still convey the thought of the price tag that should be applied to a particular job.
I feel that the writter should keep a very accurate account of time spent and materials used in a project. So if the writer states he honestly spent 3 days on carving a 4x8 sign and used $175.36 in materials, you can figure YOUR shop rate x 3 days and get close to a fair price of the prodcution costs. The "selling" cost and the "installation" costs are factors that have no set automatic controls. Installations go easy, or they go hard, depending if there is a chunk of concrete below the ground you have to dig through.
Keep your thoughts and opinions coming. Thanks again!
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited March 19, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Some of the important aspects of sign articles involve profiles of the sign artists. Rather than "I moved here ten years ago from there" I'd rather see some description of why I made the move and the fears I faced making the move and what I gained or where I was blind and short sighted.
Rather than stating prices, I'd like to hear if there was a healthy profit margin or the job came out beautifully and only cost the artist three new pair of shoes for his teenagers.
I'd like to see articles describing how to target who we want for customers and how to do the work they'll want and how to present it and gain them as clients.
We get together and all have wonderfully humerous stories and situations to dazzle each other with. Why do the mags not have humor sections? We need to laugh at ourselves.
I realize I'm addressing content and your inquiry was regarding style, but I think style changes from season to season and to differing cultures.
Do you remember when Al Zanetti did the "Trunk of the Month?" Why are we not seeing more of the Lenny Chronicles?
How about some stuff on life philosophies affecting layout proportons and colors? Or integrating more complimentary design between the sign and the architecture?
Dave, there has been some controversy here over the years between those that want to see breathtaking work and only hear from thaose that produce such displays, and the folks that produce more ordinary work and focusing more on their lives than their work. Can you find writing styles and content to draw the two together?
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Oh, for the faith of a spider! He begins his web without any thread.
Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave I have done a couple of such articles for SignCraft, I think the point is that we are not pro writers but tradesmen sharing ideas,the only changes editors made in my case was to change a few wrds in American from the Queens English. I think the how to articles are the life blood of most of the trade pulications. I for one would miss them. Cheers Terry
------------------
Posts: 210 | From: England | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I find most sign-mag articles over-written. I mean too many words, not written-over and edited (which they should be). But this is the case for most mag articles, and writing in general.
Best "writing" book for several generations has been Strunk & White's _Elements of Style_, also known as The Little Book. One reason it's so good is that it's so little.
Hand out keyboards to a roomful of monkeys, and a few of them will imagine they're Shakespeare or Dorothy Parker. Some will think they're sign artists. To be a writer, you have to be read, and most of us readers have plenty to pick from.
Many people, who want to write, do it better in 2 steps. First, just write. Spit it all out, fast as you can. All of it. Then file it, and forget it. Tomorrow, read it, and mark out all the crap.
Writing will probably have to get a lot shorter in this new age. This is because pictures are so easy to produce.
Ken Kesey described "writing seminars" as unpublished authors teaching other unpublished authors to remain unpublished authors.
Bruce Williams Lexington KY
------------------ Bruce Williams
Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I think the mags are pretty good overall for someone like me who got into this cold turkey without ever working in a signshop before.
Most of the how-to's are pretty "over-the-top" (I still haven't had a chance to do/learn a gold leaf, glue chipped glass window and have never met anyone who wanted one or would pay for it). And I can't see how anyone could ever recoup the time it takes to do a custom hand carved gold leaf, ornate sign for a coffee shop- and the writer doesn't do much to clear up that mystery either.
Even though our shop is in a neighborhood of 20 million dollar homes, everyone gets the vapors when I tell them a basic sandblasted sign starts at $75/sq foot.
BUT, it has shown me what is possible, what to strive for and that this biz is more than just slinging vinyl and not to be self conscious about valuing my work.
I've written some technical articles for other fields myself and the amazing thing is nobody reads them anyway. So I appreciate those who take the time out of their busy schedules and forgive the fact that they may not be the best writers. They give of themselves for practically nothing (certainly no $$$) and deserve our encouragment and feedback.
------------------ Rick Cooper Sierra Sign & Award Lake Tahoe, USA www.engrave.pctrader.com $$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Posts: 135 | From: Incline Village, NV, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yes they do get paid, some sign magazines pay way better than others. But they expect more also.
However if you want the big bucks, you need to write for Better Homes and Gardens, or some magazine with millions and millions of readers. Of course, they expect professional work.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited March 19, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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As a writer and author of several articles for SC, I thought your post was interesting.
One thing I try to do when writing is make the article interesting, and useful for others. And, although I'm not terribly fond of writing, I do have a BA in Communications, so I know a little bit about writing. But granted, I probably break most of the rules. For the most part, what I write initially is what Tom publishes. He does clean up some grammatical stuff, of course, if its in there. But most articles are 97% mine.
But I'm not writing for editorial or writing style critiques - I'm writing to help others, and to share what knowledge I have - in the same way Mike Stevens had.
I've gotten some positive feedback about my book, that unlike MS' book, people DID NOT need to re-read my book or articles a few times before they understood what I was getting at. For me, thats a great compliment.
When I write for SC, I'm trying to speak intelligently, but down-to-earth. I don't consider what I write about to be meant as lofty or elitist, or beyond anyone's means. In that respect, I hope to keep the article interesting to novice's and pro's alike.
I've gotten good feedback about some of my step-by-steps. A lot of folks emailed me and have said the articles were helpful.
I agree with you that some articles contain a lot of irrelevant stuff. I'm guilty of it too, occassionally.
But as was said, most of us don't write professionally for a living. We're artist first. Of course, I'm biased towards SC - and I think they do a better job than some of the other trade pubs when it comes to providing cohesive articles...
Remember, it's tough to throw yourself out there in the 'limelight' of getting something published. You always run the risk of alienating someone, or people perhaps not understanding what you are saying. And it's not easy trying to come up with articles that you think people will find interesting.
I notice that you are doing some writing for SBI. UNfortunately, I don't subscribe to that mag. But, if you're writing as well, I'm sure you understand what I'm saying!
posted
I'd like to see the magazines do a review on sign related websites. The last time I saw a review of this sort was almost 5 years ago in ST Magazine.
I'm also interested in more business related articles on time management and improving our bottom lines. The real "sign industry" consists of thousands of small signmakers like those who frequent Letterville. Let's hear more about them.
posted
I'll probably read all the replies later, but right now I just read up to Tim's. He took the words right out of my mouth. I really hate how they'll not post some of the really important photos of the project but They'll write a big I USED "FAST QUICK" or "QUICKETY FAST" & then put big photo of the product in the guy's hand. But I can't complain too much, cause what got me started was an article. SBI, Jerry Mathel, "Glue it up, Cut it out & Stick it down" (er sumpthin' like that) Signs.
------------------ Marcano-Welch Signs Luquillo, Puerto Rico 787-889-6608
Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I really appreciate the magazines for their pictures of signs and the write-ups...some are better than others...I pick and choose.
Just wanted to say that 'it seems to me' that Sign Business magazine is changing from targeting the small signmaker to something that is too 'big' lately. I know that they must include things like huge projects, and the latest technology, but I have been waiting to see some of the small sign shop step-by-step stuff they used to publish. It's just that I'd like to see both.
Has anyone else felt this about SB?
Yes, I agree with others here...SignCraft is the best.
posted
If big talk or too flowery language is used, I quit reading. I can't get through one page of Mike Stevens without putting it down. I know the info is invaluable, but the writing is simply too technical for my personal taste. I don't want to struggle with every sentence for deeper meaning.
I like to read articles that teach me something that I can try right away. I don't wish to spend $500 on equipment in order to try something out.
Pictures in step by step articles are critical for me. However not all articles require pictures.
I don't care for articles that imply you know what they're talking about. Spell it out.
I don't personally critique the body of any article. I read for enjoyment and to learn. Once I start to struggle with something, whether it be boring content or 'impressive wording', I flip the page.
I don't find stating prices in articles crucial, unless that's what the article is mainly about.
posted
I love SC. Its a good combo of articles, maybe 'cause it only comes every 2 months...why is that?
I mean look at the index: sandblated signs how to, design cost, sales tips, web site design, pinstripers, and vehicle lettering.
The others will tell you how many nano-vapors are needed to get mercury to burn hotter, and showcase the $100,000 project in vegas.
Their advice comes from shops who have consultants who havn't actually stepped foot in a sign shop. Gimme a break.
Bob Bonds got a little magazine. It's got neat stuff. He's changed the focus to vinyl and sign and truck lettering. A bi-monthly magazine with 28 pages. But 3 pages where dedicated to putting custom flames on little matchbox cars - Not my main sorce of income.
The how to's are great though.
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
From here on down, its all up hill.
Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I've noticed SB seems to be trying to appeal to the bigger shops (bigger projects) lately. The original reason I subscribed was for their step by step articles and common sense advice for the smaller sign businesses. I actually quit subscribing to Signcraft because I grew tired of all the puffery articles about individual sign shops ("yessir, after I sell my 30th $5000.00 smalt, gold leaf sandblasted italian marble sign of the year, I close up shop for 2 months and fish for the salmon swimming up stream in the river behind my quant little shop.....", oh, brother). I read only the "nuts and bolts" or marketing articles.
------------------ Tim Whitcher Quality Signs & Design 107 E Adrian St Blissfield, MI 49228 qualitysigns@cass.net
Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well Tim, you've made me brave enough to comment on something about Signcraft.
Although I do enjoy the mag, I'm finding the info and pictures very predictable. I guess I'm up for some major POW of something else. Something different. Something to get my fire going. Something I can do without knowing how to sandblast, goldleaf, etc.
I like articles that zero in on typesetting smaller stuff, good graphic design layouts, logo development, etc. Not all signmakers are good layout artists. Not every biz card should look like a major sign to be read from 100 feet away. It's an art in itself.
Not in a sign mag? Well, it should be. Enough of us sign artists do our own biz cards, etc.
This thread may have run its course. But, before it sinks to the depths of that bottomless pit below, I would like to add one more thing.
There are a great number of you who see the business and art of making signs a wee bit different than your peers. This is a good thing and maybe you are not aware of just how unique you really are.
There is a story in that, if you can find the "slant" or the "angle" to present it. You don't have to wait for someone else to write an article about YOU.
Did you know that YOU can submit a proposal to any sign magazine editor. Tell them a little about the project ( a picture can help, but if the idea is good then that should spark their interest).
Steve said he would like to see more about Sign related Websites. Well, there are so many, an idea like that could just turn into a monthy column covering a couple of neat sites in each issue. If you can make the story interesting then you can do it!
Donna is building a new shop. She could write about the "who what why where and when!" She is extremely good at shop organization. This might surprise Donna, but every sign shop I have visited is a pig sty. They could use your help, Donna. Especially if you SHOWED them how easy it is to "clean" up their act.
Some of you others post your creative work on the BB. Instead, find and angle, an interesting aspect about the job and send off a proposal to the editors.
There are at least 4 "big" sign magazines. Each month there is tons of material to be found by the editors. Each magazine needs to keep interesting stories coming in the door. Do you think that they might welcome some fresh new ideas, from fresh new sources? You can bet they do!
I will have written 9 articles by next week for SBI. There are only so many "unique" things I do. One day the ride will be over. That is the whole point. Magazines need to replace writers that burn out! You could be that one. Your star can shine bright for a moment in time also.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited March 22, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ah, Draper, a subject close to my heart, indeed.
Writing is much, much harder work than making signs, I should know; if it weren't I'd have my first novel published by now. I admire the efforts of people who write trade mag articles; they aren't professional writers, and sometimes it shows. On the other hand, they are mostly meant to inform the reader of some specific type of information, not to be entertaining, though some are (intentionally or not.)
I too wonder about time and cost factors in doing a top-line custom job. Just this morning I read the SB article by Dave Smith in England, on his "Clocktower" project. Great pictures, but despite being described as a "step-by-step" it left great gaping holes in proceedure and techniques, and nothing was said of price and profit. Perhaps that shouldn't be surprising - it was a very detailed project, and SB could easily have devoted half an issue or more to it, but they too must prioritize and fit things into the space available. Personally I'm less concerned with whether the article tells me something or leaves it out, than I am with seeing that level of craftsmanship and being inspired by it.
As for complaints that SC prints "puffy" articles about certain artists who only seem to do these incredible jobs, I have to ask - if you were asked to talk or write about your work, are you going to show off your best, or tell how you weed vinyl for parking signs? A bit of perspective might be in order here, or perhaps it's envy showing?
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I admire the efforts of people who write trade mag articles; they aren't professional writers, and sometimes it shows. On the other hand, they are mostly meant to inform the reader of some specific type of information, not to be entertaining, though some are (intentionally or not.)
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