I am fortunate enough to live very close to a wholesale sign supplier. If you need a roll of a certain color vinyl or another sheet of a substrate they are right there. I can run and pick it up within 15 minutes. Unfortunately though, I am having more and more customers tell me they bought their own material, (ex: vinyl graphics, roll of vinyl, magnetics etc.) and want to know where I get off charging "X" for the signwork when they bought the material themselves for one third of what I charge them to do the whole job. An example being, vinyl graphics. I cannot purchase the graphics and mark them up (to cover the hour I spent looking at all the choices with the customer) and apply them on their vehicle for a price of maybe $140 because they went to the sign supplier thereself and found out they could buy the graphic designs themselves for $50.00. (Of course they have trouble installing the graphics and want me to install the graphics after they buy them from my supplier.) This has happened quite often lately. Everyone is trying to cut corners and save money, which I do myself, but I cannot go to an electrical supply warehouse or plumbing supplier and buy anything unless I have contractor's license.
Does anyone else feel this is unethical? Shouldn't the supplier at least charge a retail price for a non-sign business customer? The supplier isn't going to sell me the material at the price he paid for it, why should my customers be able to buy the material at my price. I use to spend thousands of dollars every year with this company. You would think it wouldn't be worth their time to mess with the walk-ins for $10 here and $50 there, would you?
I had a customer in yesterday wanting to buy a sheet of Coroplast from me. He said he could go over to the supply house if I didn't have any. I'm I wrong to feel this way?
It's hard to keep prices up where they belong in the first place, I would just like to hear your feelings on the subject. Maybe I am totally wrong. I respect the opinions of the people here at the Bullboard.
posted
Write some letters to the manufacturers of the products that the distributor sells...Tell em whats going on....and how much you are displeased..... Of course...this stinks! Who are you..anyway...and where are you from...?
posted
The supplier shouldnt be selling at wholesale prices to retail customers, they need to protect their business customer's prices. This is the way it is in most other industries. Wholesalers only sell wholesale to retailers, if they sell to retail customers they protect their retailers prices by charging retail price for the goods.
I just flat out refuse those customers, depending how hungry I am at the time. =) If I have other work, I refuse those guys because how can you offer any warranty or quarantee when you dont know how long their stuff has been on a shelf or in some cases if you cant even tell what brand the material is?
Ever try to walk into an auto mechanic's shop with the parts you need and ask him to install them for you? If he'll even do it in the first place he wont give you any warranty on it.
Same thing here..
Of course, it all depends how hungry you are for work.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
First of all Pam, if they bring graphics or "stickers" they bought somewhere else for me to put on, I won't do it. I also don't sell my substrates out to people unless they want to pay a pretty big markup. It's wrong for your supplier to just sell to someone off the street the same as he would to you, a professional, and regular customer. I'd voice my concerns to them, and their suppliers, and maybe look for another supplier to use if possible. You are giving them business, and they are taking yours. Taint right.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Design 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
posted
That is totally wrong on the suppliers end unless he is retailing it.
By reading your post I'm sure this isn't the case, but if this was me, I would cordially write them a letter asking what their main business is before I drove a stolen truck through their beautiful front window saturday night
posted
Almost everytime this company calls me wanting an order, I mention the fact they are selling material to my customers. I have even given them names of some of them. They told me they can't tell if they are a sign business or not. That they have no way of telling. I told them that the first time I tried to order plastic letters from Gemini, they put me through the gaunlet and made me prove I was a sign business. I told them they should expect payment in form of a business check from questionable people. I know this is America and everyone has the right to sell to whoever they want. I just don't have any interest in buying from someone that causes me grief with my customers. It makes me nervous to quote jobs on magnetics, Coroplast or anything else when I have to wonder if they already know the price I am paying for my materials. The price of the material is all the customer sees. They don't consider the overhead cost, the schooling, taxes, insurance etc. Many of the other local sign shops refuse to do business with them anymore. You can't tell me the walk-in customers are worth it. Oh well, the UPS man brings most of my materials next day from another supplier I have found. Substrates, I will order out of Indianapolis, they deliver once a week.
posted
I don't like it, but its a fact of life. Its all about money, some suppliers do this, as well as offer "hefty discounts" to some of us and not to others,...money talks. Even manufacturers of sign equipment sell systems to our customers,hospitals,univerities, etc. and they have marketing in place to do so. Charge plenty for installing. People that confront you about the price of Coroplast in regards to your pricing ethics are not very "business savvy", why fret? Now if your supplier is marketing an "open to the public" selling policy I would be a little bent about it, and would demand an exceptionally low wholesale price, and ask them for an "Integrity Check". Many a Sigman has tried to skirt the middleman too. You ever buy an auto part,cassete deck,or damn near anything from Home Depot and have someone else insatll? Human nature I think. Its all about the almighty $, always is.
------------------ Rich Stebbing #945 RichSigns Rohnert Park CA
Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Rich...Hold on ..."money talks. Even manufacturers of sign equipment sell systems to our customers, hospitals, universities, etc."
I work in an "in-house" sign shop. Am I the enemy? How dare I use your equipment, purchase supplies from your suppliers!!! Stop the posturing, what are you afraid of? In addition to having a sign shop, we also have a garage, carpenter dept., electricians, paint shop, etc. All these other “trades” are widely accepted as being part of typical plant operation. And guess what, they purchase supplies from the same distributors that there commercial counterparts do.
I thought the letterheads movement was built upon sharing ideas, insights and information among fellow sign/design people. Or do you have to be a business owner to be accepted??
Jim Schneck Dorney Park
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Posts: 27 | From: Whitehall, Pa USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Woooooah! Jim! A "in house" sign dep't. is a lot different than Joe's Shoe Repair, or Betty's Coffee Shop! You ARE a sign shop and should get materials from a wholesaler, BUT NOT the ordiary retail customers! That is what everyone is complaining about!
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
had a experiance with an "in house" sign shop the other day. i had my mobile sign shop parked in front of a clients that i was doing some computer work for(iam multi-talented)this guy come in the door and asked for the "sign shop on wheels"...i answered him..well he wanted to know if i had those little brass things that you put on a banner so you can hang it...on the truck. well i said no but i can go to the house and get em....then i asked what he was needin em put in? seems his "friend"(who did the banner for free)works for the beer dist company and he runs the "inhouse" sign shop. i told this guy that if i put the gromets in the banner it would cost him a minimum of $15 and that he should go back to the guy that made the banner and let him put em in(guess the CO. didnt buy any yet)....or go to a hardware store and by the gromet kit for $10......and i told him him what i thought of his "friend"...because ive had other people tell me about him...using the companies materials and equipment for his own use....now this dont fly at any company i ever worked at........and this is not how he would run his own business, if he didnt have a paycheck form this beer dist. Had the same beer dist co. do a number on a friend "sign painter" in sarasota ...my friend was doin all their signs and vinyl work for them...then they bought all "in house" equipment to the tune of $20,000 worth. well the told rick they didnt need him any more ..so he didnt get upset about it. couple months go by, the beer dist give my freind a call....they want him to go to their "in house" sign shop and TEACH(for free) their $6.50 an hour employee how to make signs.....needless to say what my friend told them.....so herin lies the problem..the only reason they went with their own equipment was to save money.....but did it really....they had my friends "talent and 20 yrs experiance"....but thought it better to buy $20,000 worth of eqipment to save the money they paid him to do.....his work....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited March 18, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Old Paint....I'm sorry you had those experiences. Please don't paint all"in-house" shops with the same brush! We have a professional shop. Guys with 15+ yrs in the field. I've encountered with some commercial shops who where lost if you weren’t asking for black and red on white background MDO rectangle sign. I’ve seen from your posts you ar an experienced sign man. Just realize some in-house situations are necessary to insure consistent sign programs, and also use local sign shops to compliment there abilities.
Jim
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Posts: 27 | From: Whitehall, Pa USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
To me I see it this way, everywere you look someone is selling the materials or signs to the public...Home Depot, Staples,Canadian Tire stores in (Canada) even the suppliers to our trade etc etc.
But the public is getting the lowest of quality in Artwork or materials for the buck... Most of it is only punch and go designs.
This is where you have to assure you customer of the thought behind his sign.. You are looking out for their best interest. Inform them of the second look approach.
Straight block lettering,One colour on white stock doesn't make me excited and doesn't make the public excited either.
Colours,Styles,Graphic layouts. are the ones that will get the second look! And even the question asked of who did this work. Let them have theses nickels and Dimes because I am truely after the dollar.. If you get someone coming into you shop with decals done by suppliers then I would look and laugh and give them an answer of "I'm sorry but I can't hang my name on something that ugly!!!!!!" Please return to the place of purchase!!!!
------------------ Raven/2001 Airbrushed by Raven Lower Sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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You might make a few phone calls to other local shops in the area. Find out if they share your concerns.
Write a letter listing all the shops in the area that disapprove of this. Estimate the amount of sales they are going to lose each month from these shops and include it in the letter. Then see if you and the other shops can buy from another supplier out of the area for six months.
They might see things differently in a few months.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Double posting happens when the "submit now" key is clicked, and nothing happens. The poster then clicks on it again, and again, each time adding a post unknowingly.
Its a glitch in the BB.
When you click on the submit button, and nothing happens, exit out of the BB totally and come back. You will find your post is there.
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited March 18, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Pam, You have recived quite a few replies to you post and I must say this is one very sharp group of people. Most all of them have hit the mark on this subject. BUT I would like to put my 2 cents in (which you could probably buy direct for 1 1/2cents). I have only been In the sign Business for 4 years so I do not consider my self an expert in that field. Instead I will speak of my experience in other fields. I have had over 20 jobs before I got into the sign deal and I can tell you this.This is a natural progression of our existance. It is common in every field, one of the post mentioned that you can't buy auto parts from Walmart and bring them to a mech. to have them installed. I am here to tell you yes you CAN.The only diffeance is the way each shop owner handles each of these situations. Some are rude and tell the customer to F off and some are smart and educate their customer on the fopas of this, and inbetween are all the millions of ways each shop handles each situation. I think what I am trying to say is don't worry about what your supplier is doing, don't wast your time complaining either.And don't refuse to buy from them based on this alone. I buy from who ever provides the product and service that best fits MY needs and it is not my concern who their customers are. Look at what happened to the town squares when the Walmarts and Home Depots arrived. Instead of getting upset tend to your customers and remember the TREND is your FREIND, think about ways to fill the areas they can't. I have had some of my biggest accounts do the same thing to me. One of them started buying their graphics from some discount place and wanted me to apply them. At first I was upset but then I said OK and charged them a good price to do it. I made good money on the job and I retained all their other work,It even ended up finding me a new nich "decal removal" I know some will say they won't put crap on because it makes them look bad, will if that is the case I try to educate my customer (if I choose to keep him)about these issues and in the long run they see the light. If the Walmarts of the Sign industry do away with us then it is because we did not stay ahead of them. "I bought something from Walmart and it did not work, I brought it back, Complete refund NO QUESTIONS ASKED". "I bought something from a mom and pop store and it did not work, I brought it back, Complete HASTLE"! Stay ahead of this, service is everything. If you do good work you will be fine and if I am wrong and we are wiped out we will find something NEW to do. In the short time I have been around this business I have never met so many talented and resoursefull people. I have had every job under the sun,Mechanic,Meat Cutter, Carpenter,Salesman,for Gosh's sake I even drove race cars for a living. I used to think I was some kind of multi talented Drifter until I discovered the Sign Business, then I realized I'm just your average(below avg. at Home Depot) sign guy,A group of the most resourseful people I have yet to meet in my 41 years. WoW I'm worn out I'm going to go take another nap! Leonard Lee
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Posts: 11 | From: Milo IA. USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I agree with alot of these responses,.... I can remember sign folks complaining that the local hardware would sell brushes & paint to anyone who would buy them,.... I can remember sign folks complaining that the plotter salesman would sell to any corporation that wanted an in house sign shop. In the end,... these bargain hunters were the same folks painting the ugliest signs in times past to the obviously no skilled computer design work we see on every other corner nowadays. There is always going to be the cheapskate customer looking for the cheapest way out who complains the most, & has the cheapest looking signs in town.This kind of customer ya don't need.If the customer wants a sign cheaper from me than I will negotiate then I suggest they go elsewhere.If they want my services & they want to supply materials I just charge them for the privilage(standard shop rates).Materials are overhead if you mark them up then you yourself are retailing them to your customers in competition with the supply house as they obviously are retailing to the public also.If you are selling your services for their value as advertising the cost of the materials are inconsequential to the labor.Tell these "Bargin Hunters"(aka cheapskates) this. One of the problems in this day & age is that parts of our industry have tried to reduce the computer graphics part of our industry down to a comodity instead of artistic advertising of times past.This is the nature of the beast we deal with daily,called the sign business.If you are trying to compete with someone who has a deeper pocketbook than you, pricewise it's a lost cause, your best bet will be to compete with better service, superior quality & superior design.
------------------ fly low...timi/NC is,.....Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC http://artistsfriend.com/signs
posted
Hey Jim, you are not my enemy, I like to think I don't have them, at least that's my mindset. I know that vendors/mfgs. are part of "our team" and us theirs. I can praise many and lambast a few too (but won't).The post I answered to sounded a little naive when it came to the "the hard cruel world of business", and no, businesses are not my enemies either. Sounds like you got a story to tell. So hey, does your company get any discounts when purchasing?(are you sure). Do you yourself do the purchasing? Have you ever been an Independant SignMaker on the "outside" that supports you and family? What does being a "True Letterhead" have to do with this post? I did share, my feelings on the subject,...or should I have candy-coated something here? Do business ethics have any importance to you? I can cut thru many posts here at Bullboard and other places where the bottom line is the money. I don't like, but I find it to be true. By the way Jim ,I ask all these questions in a mild mannered tone. This Bullboard is great place to allow us to choose how and what we want to give and take here. (OT,... here it comes) Reasons people have not become residents here are political, religious,personality differences, etc., but I beleive it's the money! Whats your story?
------------------ Rich Stebbing #945 RichSigns Rohnert Park CA
Posts: 755 | From: Rohnert Park, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The answer to this may be right in front of our noses. Use Letterville Merchants whenever possible.
I'm serious. Most Letterville Merchants are committed to the users of this website. With over 6,340 registered users, Letterville has the potential to become the largest association of signmakers in the World. Our combined spending power and ability to communicate should give us certain advantages, not to mention discounts.
I'm not advocating this forum is used as a tool to expose bad suppliers. From time to time, we all make mistakes. I guess what I am trying to say is that the small sign business is no longer isolated. Ask your supplier if they are a Letterville Merchant. Tell then you know 6,400 other small signmakers looking for exceptional suppliers and service.
posted
Have you ever seen a set of vehicle mags purchase from Staples and done by a couple of turkeys without a ruler. It is plain funny. Just received my Signcraft magazine. I know why Signmakers get paid the bucks. If a person comes into my sign shop asking for corplast or materials to build their sign I sell it or send them to my supplier. I know how long it took us to get learn the little about the industry and if some person figures they can get it done (right) in an hour well good luck to them.
posted
Kevin That is so true I love when I see pure CRAP almost as much as good work. I am very new at this business and I don't consider myself that good at it, If I am asked to do a job that is over my head I don't take it. But when I see those mags like you mentioned I know there is hope for me! I replied today because it just so happened I was cruising with a buddy today and we went passed a Tire shop with nice sign work and the only thing that stood out was where the owner had taken what appeared to be LUNG BUTTER and scrawled his hours all over the front window! I'll cold call that shop tomorrow, To grossed out today! Thats All nothing important Leonard Lee
------------------ Leonard Lee Best freind of REBEL the Wonder Dog
Posts: 11 | From: Milo IA. USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Since you are getting more than just the occasional customer going straight to the supply house for the materials, I would not refuse to do the install. My worry would be that if you refused, they'd go back to the supply house for a referral and someone there might decide to start moonlighting. I would:
A) Set up a meeting with the head of the supply house. I'd start off by saying that you were under the impression that they sold wholesale only to sign businesses. If he/she says that's correct, then ask if they have a retail price list available for non-sign businesses, and ask how they determine who is entitled to wholesale pricing. Then relate the experiences you've had with the number of non-sign business customers his people are selling wholesale to and the response you've gotten from your sales person regarding the issue. If the boss tells you that they sell to any one at wholesale prices, then unless you spend a substantial amount per year with this company, or have a coalition of other concerned sign shops willing to boycott the company, I doubt threats to take your business elsewhere will do much good.
B) If someone brings you their own graphic to install, I would explain to them that most shops flat out refuse to install customer provided materials (because of lack of control over the quality of material, shelf life issues,etc), but you will do it provided they understand and sign an agreement to the following: a)You cannot warranty any job with materials that were not provided by your shop. b) install rate when the customer provides their own is higher. When they complain (they ALWAYS complain) point out "you have a beauty shop, right? If I came in with my own bottle of hair coloring, first you'd probably refuse to use it, but if for some reason you did, wouldn't you charge extra to apply it, just in case the coloring job was botched up and you had to re-dye my hair with another bottle of hair dye out of your pocket not to mention the time to fix it?" Unfortunately, this kind of example won't work with banks or realtors - you'll have to come up with a different line of reasoning for them! lol
------------------ Kelli Cajigas aka Janda Dolphin deSigns & Banners “A satisfied customer will tell two friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ten.”
Your supplier is either lying or just plain lazy when he said that they can't tell if the person is a ligit sign company or Joe Blow off the street. Most "legitimate" wholesalers require an account of some sort be set up and be given a federal tax ID number.
If the wholesaler is selling to Joe Blow, he must charge a sales tax. That should be the wholesaler's first clue. I would call the owner of the wholesale business register a complaint. Then, if you don't get a satisfactory answer, let the "jerk" know that you will be sending a certified letter to the IRS. I'm sure they'd like to know how the wholesaler is handling the sales tax.
I appreciate and respect everyones point of view on this subject. I have spoke with other shops in the area and they are not happy either. One said that they know for a fact the price is the same for Joe Blow as for with us. Many of the shops said they had other complaints with this supplier. It started some real heated dicussions. All said they were buying very little or nothing at all from this business now. ( I spoke with 4 shops in a 30 mile radius of here).
I while back I ran into one of the wholesaler's employees at the bank. She had just quit her job there and was hestitant to say too much. She did say customers were letting them know they were mad and the owners response was, "They'll get over it and then they will be back."
I only spent about a thousand and month with this company, but I rather have several medium size or smaller accounts than to focus on one very big account. When the big account decides to leave or file bankrupcy, you take a real hit. (don't put all your eggs in one basket). I heard the owner's son was out visiting customers now, looking for more accounts. He stopped here the other day to see what I needed. I said I need for them to stop selling to my customers, he said he couldn't tell who was a sign bus. and who wasn't. Yesterday I got a discounted price list from them.
Maybe they are getting it, I don't know. I don't care if they sell to anybody off the street, I just feel they should mark it up a little. One of their vinyl suppliers is just down the road from me. I can't go buy the vinyl staight from that company. I have to order it through the distributor and then I can run over to the supply house and pick it up, but I can't buy direct. I have to pay the markup.
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