posted
We are thinking of purchasing a vinyl printer for our shop and would like to hear any imput from owners of these two machines.The big drawback for the EDGE for us is that we don't run any Gerber equip. now so we would have to buy a plotter, software computer, the whole works. Also we use primarily 24" vinyl in our shop.(our plotter's are both 24") so we would have to bring in 15" punched vinyl. Of course maybe the edge is worth it, that's why I am posting this topic. Any imput from owner's of these machines would be greatly appreciated, thanks
------------------ Jim Hansen Tri-Star Graphics Bethel, Ct. 800-716-6500 e-mail:tsgracingdecals@aol.com
Posts: 51 | From: Bethel, Ct. usa | Registered: Jan 2001
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Your question has been answered over and over again on this BB.
Glen Taylor has done a complete cost study comparison and will probably post the entire information here, or link to it.
You might find the information by doing a search.
What you will find is that in the long run the Gerber Edge wins hands down in every catagory except initial cost. In other words the cost of producing a digital graphic will be much more costly on the Roland, even though the initial costs to buy the equipment is lower.
And Now: Right here on our stage, lets give a big warm welcome to, Mr. Sign, The South's hero sign maker and wall dog....... GlEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNN TAAAAAAYLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRR!
( Glenn, psst, Glenn, you are out there, right? Oh Glennnnnnnnn! )
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Be Sure to Check Out My Next Article On "Sign Shop Photography" in the March Issue of Sign Builder Illustrated! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I bought Rolands pc-60 Color-Camm Pro and love it, being a mom and pop shop, it was alot easier getting into the market at the cost of this machine, and I'd purchase the pc-600(latest version?which saves 20-40% more ribbons than the pc-60, with faster cut speeds, if I was shopping today.
I use Corel8 with my pc 60, and the rumors about Corel not performing just arent true, I think theres just a few folks that cant use the software very well, but folks dont want to hear that after popping down 20,000 grand , and more money for a tractor feed plotter.
Like all new equipment theres always a learning curve, nothing is all that turn key.
The costs for ribbons is more with the pc 60, but I'm at least in the market now
Besides the costs of buying the edge, in addition the edge requires that you but a tractor feed plotter, plus the edge could only print 11.75 wide, where the color camm output is at 22" wide, I dont like seams, and the less there are, the better it is.
If your getting a very large job that will pay for the equipment, go for the edge and the cost savings of the ribbons will make up for it over time, but if you just want to get into the market, and have a low budget, go for the pc-60.
most sites are saying the edge's full color production costs are at around $2-$3us per square foot, and that the pc 60 costs are at $8-$9 sq ft. Also add in clear coating @ around $1.00 sq ft. I like to use a good amount of clear.
Heres some pricing I recieved on used equipment: PC-60 demo model at $6,000.00 (cuts on its own)
Gerber's Edge, used 2 years with 6 yr.old tractor feed @$24,950.00
New was 7,900.00 for the pc-60, and around $40,000.00 for the edge with plotter, I dont now of the software costs associated with this.
Good Luck, hope this helps call if you've more questions.
------------------ Ron Percell Percell Signs 707-769-0639 Petaluma, California
We offer a product that has a lower operating cost than the EDGE(r), and that fairs exceptionally well when total costs are calculated (equipment, software, and supplies).
It also addresses your other concerns, since it prints to 15, 24, 48 or 54 inch vinyl (or anything in between). And it includes an open-architecture RIP, so you needn't rely on Gerber software, cutters, etc. Most of our customers are using CorelDRAW and Photoshop, however, nearly any design software will do.
Please check it out at http://www.summadirect.com/us/merchant.mv?screen=prod&store_code=s&product_code=dc50&category_code=prt . The product is DuraChrome(tm), and it's quite popular among former EDGE users; in large part because it changes up to 8 ribbons automatically. That frees you up to print while you're doing something else, out to lunch or after you've gone home for the night (EDGE requires manual ribbon changing and only works when you do).
DuraChrome also compares favorably on a monthly cost of ownership basis, especially given our current lease plan (0% ... or approx $840 / month). Additionally, our users are reporting finished process color output costs of $2 a sq ft on ready-to-install vinyl images ... this is "real" cost in a production environment, not theoretical costs based on best-case senarios. I have many customers with whom you could speak, to assist you in your product evaluations.
Sincerely,
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Jim, how's the print compared to a wide format inkjet. I own an edge and love it, but am dissaponted in some of the colors, ie fading, Sunflower yellow, orange, to name a couple. I have some issues with gerber on this topic which I have'nt addressed just yet, but these colors did not last a year. In the near future I'm looking at a wide format printer to compliment the edge and all our other work, and am quite interested in the durachrome.
------------------ "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF
Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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If you read the warranty info on the Gerber foil charts, the colors are individually warranted.....Brick Red is 3 years, Tomato Red for 4 years, Pink for 2 years. If you follow the directions properly and still have a failure, Gerber will replace it.
I was at a seminar on digital printing a few years ago and a Gerber VP was there. I asked him about it and how exactly Gerber goes about standing behind it. He told me and everyone else in the room that if there is a failure and you have followed Gerber's instructions, not only will they replace the materials but the labor as well. A man in the audience stood up and confirmed what the speaker said. The man in the audience was from Georgia. He said he had a failure 1 year after installation. He called Gerber. As he described it, within 3 days Gerber swooped down like a SWAT team to his shop. Worked with him to reprint the job and even went out on the jobsite and helped to redo the job.
Someone else asked about the "labor" costs. The Gerber speaker offered to provide in writing that Gerber would even replace the costs of labor.
I don't know of anyone who will do that.
If Neal is having a problem, he needs to contact Gerber so that they can stand behind their products. If he doesn't, then its his own fault just as it would be mine if I didn't.
There is something else to consider about Thermal-resin printing. The further north (or closer to the poles) you are, the longer your prints will last. The closer to the equator you are, the shorter your prints will last. The enemy is UV light. A print used outdoors in Alaska is going to last much longer than one in Florida. Its just a matter of using common sense.
Gerber is the only company I know of that offers a "minimum" warranted outdoor durability. All of the others use the term "UP TO." From a legal point of view, that means that there really isn't any warranty, only an expectation based on their testing.
I could go into this even deeper, but I might get criticized for writing another long post.
If you do have concerns, the best thing you can do is call Gerber or whomever directly and ask for "written" information about what they will do for you and not do; and what they expect from you should a failure occur and you want to claim it under warranty.
By the way, I've got Edge prints outside facing due south that have been there since February 1998. They still look new. I had to use our Edge to replace 6 month old ColorCamm prints that failed. I had called Roland several times about it and they never returned any of my calls. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.
The testing for colorfastness is based on vertical surfaces, not horizontal. If you want to warranty a horizontal application, you must use Gerber's UV Guard vinyl. It will give you a 5 year warranty on both vertical and horizontal surfaces with the exception of Pink foils.
posted
Hi Glenn, With all respect... When I bought all my gear I paid well over $40,000. At no time did they tell me anything about fading or That I needed to laminate, clear, or anything of that matter. Also any literature that I recieved from gerber stated that an edge print will last "up" to 5 yrs "without" any protection, only floor graphics needed to be protected. Like I said I think that overall the product is great, you just need to clear coat the yellows and the oranges... The very first thing I did with the edge was my own van, using all of gerbers products. it did not last, after 1 yr it was embarrasing, I had to do it over. The supplier here in Canada is ND Graphics and I must say they are great, they are willing to help and return phone calls promptly. Glenn I did inform them of the problems but I have to send them the samples which is quite understandable. I use sunflower yellow all the time, it is probably my most popular color, I just wish it performed better. As for uv rays, I don't think the further you go north matters all that much because the hole in the ozone is right over my shop! lol Ps I always enjoy your comments and knowlege on gerber gear... are you recieving any royalties? lol Neil
------------------ "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF
Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
LOL!!....I could use some royalties. Gotta pay off this loan we got for rebuilding our shop!
Anyhooo.....Contact your distributor and ask for the GerberColor foils Selection Guide. On the back at the bottom of the brochure it should show a #P72839A which I think is there product number for the brochure. In it, it shows that Gerber's Sunflower Yellow is rated for 4 years. I use a lot of Sunflower yellow too without any clearcoating and I've not had any problems.
Something you will want to note on the brochure is that it says.....
quote:NOTE: These durability results are based on accelerated weathering test we believe to be reliable. A significant decrease in performance life may be experienced when graphics have been applied to surfaces which are other than vertical. Climatic variations will yield varying results compared to the above.
Meanwhile, if Sunflower Yellow is giving you a headache, you may want to try using Iimak's Duracoat foils. I only use them for jobs that I know are short term, but ya never know. It may work better for you.
By the way, if the ozone hole is over your shop, stop spraying so much paint!!
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I've been getting ready for the ISA show and haven't spent too much time in front of my computer.
Ron: Availability on DuraChrome is good now. It's been shipping for two years (the anniversary is this month), and we've finally gotten our manufacturing in line with demand. From signing of lease docs, delivery is around 5 days.
Also, please give Al and Karla my best regards next time you see them. I had a chance to get down to Cotati and met the whole Hines Signs gang. Super nice people (but you know that).
Neil: Our spot colors are highly fade resistant, as are our process colors. But, Gerber's are too. I'm not sure what's happening with your EDGE prints, but it's very atypical. Are they commercial vehicle graphics? The harsh chemicals used to wash commercial trucks, etc. can speed the fading process, but one year seems unusual. Even our "indoor-only" metallic foils will last a year in outdoor applications. I suspect something else is causing your prints to fade prematurely.
By way of explanation, neither we nor Gerber manuafacture resin ribbons. Ribbons are made by a small number of third-party manufacturers, and the formulations they use are remarkably similar. There is little or no difference in ours or Gerber's outdoor life.
Where we diverge is in the methods by which our equipment prints. The EDGE has us beat hands-down in available spot colors. But DuraChrome has everything else (even MAXX when it ships) beat in size, automation, ease of setup and operation, and low output cost.
Resin is amazingly reliable, and proven by the test of time. If yours is not performing, I think you may wish to check with your customer(s) to see if they're being exposed to any unusual chemicals or conditions. If they are, you may need a top coat to protect the image. But that's a value-add, and should make the job more profitable.
Best Regards,
Jim
------------------ Jim Doggett Vice President Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA jim@summusa.com
Posts: 500 | From: Sherman, TX USA | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
No! to be blunt... My own sign which do face south is faded, it's not only vehicles it faded on, signs as well, in less than 1 yr. I did check on the chemical thing and it's happening on all types of vehicles in all types of applications.. and just an hour ago a customer called to say.. "Neil... guess what? You know those 4 vehicles yo did last yr. well the yellow fade on the letters is no longer there, What happened? And I look like an Idiot. Used all gerber gear and it still happened.. so there's going to be phone calls. If anyone would like photos of these jobs I could email.. You Know I spent 25 yrs in this biz. bought the best of gear that money could buy, at the time, and to tell you the truth "I'm pissed off". The more I think about it the angier I get. I would also like to know do gerber do anything special to their vynil or foils to make it a so called "Matched Set" I did use some aftermarket foils but they seem to work just as well, if not better in some cases. Neil
------------------ "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF
Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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As odd as this may seem, you have an opportunity here with your customers. Take care of the matter post haste. It'll make you look better in your client's eyes and build your credibility more than you can imagine. Also, tell the customer what is going on and that you are in the process of getting with the equipment/product manufacturer and that he (the client) may get a call from them. I doubt Gerber would, but it sure sounds impressive to your client.
Take pictures and carefully remove the faded pieces of vinyl. Get Gerber AND your distributor on the phone. Send samples to both of them overnight. Be nice but firm and ask when you can expect service. Get the name of every person you spoke to and record the time and date of each conversation. Its a lot of documentation, but it lets them know you are a serious businessman and that you are no "jackleg".
Don't be afraid to send a letter to the top man at Gerber if you have to. Just be sure to let the people you deal with first have a reasonable time to make a reasonable effort.
Meanwhile, get all the documentation together that you can about each project. Gerber is going to need it so that they can use it to lead them to a solution and avoid the problem in the future.
posted
Neil, you gotta realize that "up to 5 years" basically covers any amount of time from 1 day up to 5 years. They have a really great way of phrasing things these days.
I have the Edge 2 and usually clear coat my prints for added durability. I'll post some pics here soon of a job we just finished yesterday.
------------------ Bruce Evans
Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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