posted
It seems to me that alot of sign people are crossing the line over to custom vehicle graphics. The old cans of One Shot that you got 3 cans of every color are not for applying show quality graphics and are not meant to be clearcoated. As a matter of fact they are not even made to be sprayed, the lightfastness of the pigments(which is not very good already) is dramaticly reduced when you thin OS enough to spray. Also we have had this discussion before but, lettering enamel is not part of a base/clearcoat system, if you put a eurathane product over OS you take the chance of lifting the entire piece, also you are not protecting the paint from U.V. damage. please for the sake of potentialy good graphics, apply them using a compatable basecoat system, the paint manufacturers are making some beautiful and easy to use products, check them out!
also, when using these paints where a good canister mask.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted
I've had good results with spraying one shot, using it for graphics, and also clearing it with auto urethane! A freind did the whole lower portion of his truck in process blue over dark blue and cleared coated, this was 5 years ago. I did alot of graphics on my truck and cleared it with no problems. And yes, uv clear will protect an enamel paint. Try a test youself, paint a small panel and clear half of it, the cleared side will last far longer. Iv'e only been doing this since 1977, what do I know?
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Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I hand paint pinstripes with one shot for a custom Harley builder that Requires it painted on the base coat FIRST!!Then he clear coats it.He doesn't seem to have a problem and wins quite a few "Best of Show" Is pinstripping considered Graphics???Like Webster considers it Graphics?? Or are we talking about pictorials??
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dana Aaron
unregistered
posted
What about the mixing of some of the clear in with the one shot?
I have Harley tanks I did before I had internet and access to you guys. Didn't really know any better and painted an eagle landing on HD stone letters on just the painted tanks without clear on them. Got a little thick in a couple places and just about had a nervous breakdown waiting to hear about them being cleared.
Local body guy, Chris, misted it lightly a couple times, then proceeded with 5 more coats of clear and everything turned out ok. Whew.
I've got another one coming in, and they too want an eagle and some SignGold. I will be painting it with a brush (not quite ready to do the airbrush thing yet). Chris painted the tanks again and didn't put any clear on them yet.
I was going to get get some of what Chris uses for clear to mix with the one shot. Will that be ok?
------------------ Dana Aaron Sign-A-Saurus Nevis, MN (218)652-3839 ICQ# 37949659
Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?
posted
I understand your efforts to enlighten the inexperienced painters here Ken, however,... One shot has been used since day one at most of the big auto manufacturers for pinstriping.This does not by any means make it right or wrong for any given application.Very little if any vehicle graphic work gets to the status of "show quality" or ever wins awards.It is just a personal statement from the vehicle owner to those who see it.To say that it is not to be used is gross negligence on your part or I misunderstand the intent of your post.As for stepping over that imaginary line you speak of well it seems to me that alot more custom painters have stepped over to the sign side in the past few years,with the advent of economical cas systems.I have to agree with your post however on one respect,...one shot is not a part of the base/clear coat system. This is just my opinion & not a slam to you personally.I simply want to set the record straight for all those who do step across that imaginary line in the sand you draw occaisionally,...especially the newbies who don't have the specialized equipment to use the ureathanes you so proudly hail.Only the hardeners in one shot have the isynocates(sp?) that the new urethanes contain thus making it a much safer medium for the beginner.Many award winning painters in this area still use one shot for finishing details along with the urethane clears,it just takes alot of experience along with some extra care in use.I'm not talkin' local street rods but natl' race teams ya see on tv every other weekend & show stoppers! To eliminate one shot from street graphics would eliminate 80% of all custom painting.If you have a problem with a product don't use it, just don't condemn it for the rest of us!
posted
Nice try Ken.....hehehehe...i think someone said that already...but hey its there business. And as much to my surprise the wrong way was always good for business. But folks what Ken was trying to say was..the right materials for the job.....not because its easy for us but because the customer is trusting our judgement to give them quality. And to me quality is a product that will perform 99.99% of the time ...no 60% not 75%....but everytime....i hear a lot of stories about how this guy did this and it worked fine and that gal did this and it seemed fine but there are always the other side of that same story didnt work.......but you find a paint that works in a variety of situations and always performs great ...now thats quality and thats what i want to give my clients........and folks become a paint chemist....some of us hear know that certain paints wont work under others no matter how gentle you apply them....in the end chemical combatibility will win.......and your customer will lose.........and i think Ken is saying quality street and show paint needs to be the best out there........................but Ken im with you on the issue been something ive voiced my whole career.....use the best not whats lying around....and i dont think that one shot is the problem....we have learned to clear the great pinstriping work and i think that one shot has its place......it does great graphics......some here like Bob Bond does great one shot graphics on Rods........myself i do the same thing with lacs and uros.....but Bob can do his work under a tent.....for me to do good graphics like that has to be done in the shop.......but again the right materials for the job.........if your gonna base coat clear coat use the right materials....trapping in-combatible layers might work but dont count on it.............DocCyber
posted
Hey Ken...Just a humble vinyl jockey here but I am a believer. Just came in from the spray booth where I airbrushed 20 sq. ft. of vinyl graphics with basecoat. Just having a coffee and then I'll go out and spray the clearcoat with the regular touch-up gun. ( I LOVE the stuff!) Didn't have to scuff the vinyl at all, just a quick wipe with prep-sol to get rid of my greasy fingerprints. I KNOW it will stick because, in the past, if I have gone too heavy with the base color it will attack and wrinkle the vinyl. I also have a couple of jobs that I have screwed up and kept the painted vinyl, still on the backing paper. After 2 years it is still as flexible as unpainted vinyl. Using the proper combination of paints is important in my humble opinion.
Of course, it is important to have the facilities for applying the stuff. Outside will work, but depending on your location, you could end up with snowflakes in the job or mosquitos!!
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@odyssey.on.ca www.odyssey.on.ca/~dave.grundy "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
posted
Some times I think that some people asked themselves to many questions and the answer only becomes a mess in their heads... What is with the One Shot products as we have seen High performance signs that have lasted over 10 years out there and some were brushed or Airworked.. Graphics on vechicles are the same principal.. The right prep and application and clear coating will give you a very nice finished product. Lasting for years but the customer is part of this picture too.. If they don't help save the finish of their vechicle and the graphics on it with the tender loving care of wash and wax or the enviroment and elements will kill everything on the surface.. Loving your Car Truck Van or Bike mean to wash and wax every week to pre coat the surface...Not doing this only ask for problems...
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Well, it seems that Captain Ken has opened up Pandoras box and although only a handful of persons really know exactly what he is speaking of as we have many who truly believe that sign enamel is the cure all to almost every project. I can understand what Ken is speaking of except for the fact that the client has the last word on How Much he is willing to pay for the job. The work and monies involved putting a correct graphic on any vehicle project using automotive paints is substantially higher then laying it down with sign enamel, this makes sign enamel a reasonable course to take. Clear coats are not at all necessary unless you are using automotive paints to start with.
As some of you know I too use HoK striping paints as well as sign enamel, for I believe that every paint has its place as well as clear coats. When one speaks of Isocyinates and their effect on the human body I understand, but what most do not understand is that all catalysts contain Iso's including 1Shot and Chromatic.The only difference is that the sign paint people call the catalyst a hardener, Duh! I also truly believe that in order to get a show finish ( show finish: artwork or pinstriping that cannot felt through the clearcoat ) the proper paints and materials must be used and thats a fact. Sign enamels do not fit the bill. For those who live on the west coast and are into custom bikes surely know the name of motorcycle builder Arlen Ness with more awards then most have paint cans. East coast's builder Dave Parawitz with just as many awards and both use HoK exclusively both in spray, striping, graphics and artwork.
There are more then just a few who know the difference between a great job and a show finish as lots of ordinary body shops prove that fact, but using the correct materials for any job can and will cost you dearly if you don't have the experience when putting your project together.
------------------ Joey Madden the Pinstriper, Designer and Manufacturer of Killerkoncepts...... http://www.killerkoncepts.com
Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident! Location, Location, Location! It's all right here! http://www.letterhead.com/supporters
posted
Hey 'Heads! I knew I would start a war whether or not I made my self clear so I didn't just to make it interesting. I forgot to mention I use the wrong paint too. We have touched on this in past battles as well... Joey and Doc, thanks for backing me up here.
Timi, you know paint and helped me out with the sistine revisited project (thanks) I am not here to argue. I too use one shot on most if not all of my stripping just cuz thats what I always used and now with the new catalyst I am more comfortable using it. but as far as LARGE graphic stripes or BOLD graphics such as flames, scollops, two-tones, metallics, pearls and such and especially arbrush work where you are either misting color on or appling layers over each other the proper paint for the job SHOULD be used. there was a recent post about clearing one-shot and the question was "which paint should I use to do airbrush work on a Guitar to be cleared with eurathane, one-shot or createx" he got 12 answers saying use eurathane... lacquer... etc... one shot and cross your fingers...etc... everybody had an answer " I clear over one-shot all the time" but the answer to his question is not enough if we are to educate this person or anyone on this board reading the post we need to also tell him that there is a product that is better for his application. Rob and Pierre, a quote from my Father (grhs) "just 'cuz you have been doing it for years, doesn't mean you been doin' it RIGHT for years" Dave, thats funny Snowflakes in the paint, I suppose some of us know more about that than others, eh?
Also, as far as 'specialty equipment' goes you should be wearing a mask when you SPRAY any type of paint.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted
Looking back now my response was kinda harsh Ken, but not directed specifcally at you,I hope you understand. Sometimes what we intend to say & what comes across or is understood by the readers can be 2 completely different interpretations.Well anyway by poking the hornets nest a coupla times we got some really elaborate responses to further explain the issue I think you intended to address.Hope it helps someone,....
posted
David..I just mix up the color I want, reduce it appx. 50/50 with basecoat reducer and spray away. You just have to be sure not to lay it on too heavy (THAT will wrinkle the vinyl), spray it and let it flash off and then spray more if necessary for the coverage. I usually wait about 15 or 20 minutes before spraying the clearcoat. Then I spray one mist coat of clear, wait 15 or 20 minutes and then spray a full flow coat. I like using mid temp reducer and mid range catalyst. (found that the fast catalyst will result in lifting of the base and clear when weeding) I wait about 2 hrs to do the weeding.
I am curious about what specific problem you had using BC/CC one vinyl?
------------------ Dave Grundy shop#340 AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@odyssey.on.ca www.odyssey.on.ca/~dave.grundy "A PROUD $ supporter of the website"
[This message has been edited by Dave Grundy (edited April 04, 2000).]
posted
First let me sat you didnt hear this from me....hehehehe.....but you can spray anything on top of most anything if you follow these rules......mist on your coats so that it goes on very dry....this will keep any solvents from soaking into bottom sensative layers.........wait as long as possable between coats.......apply at leasy 4 dry coats........then apply a wet real light wet coat and then another untill you have something that has built up in layer thickness...let that dry overnight come back the next day and wet sand out the dry spots then start apply light wet coats.........untill you can work up a nice wet coat......the theory is to apply enough of the clear in thin coats to creat one good layer of clear......then smooth that coat and use the ability of the first dry clear coat to protect the sensative layer...........ive put lacquers over straight enamels doing this and it worked........didnt last that long but it did go over it and dried and was fine...for a quickie..........but you know what they say about quickies..............never look back...hhehehehe.............now back to using the right materials for the job.........thought id share an ol layer painting trick..........DocCyber
posted
Timi, I do think this flammering back and forth does some how "clear" things up, in some strange demented way, I just hope the underlining message which is, umm... uuuuuuuuh.... oh yeah! quality! is getting across. By research and education we can all hope to put out a quality product, I am an airbrush guy so thats what I know if I have a doubt in my mind which product to use for carving, or digital printing, or electric signs etc... because I don't fully understand the best product for me to use, I would want to research it... the best source for information on such topics is here, at the Letterhead site, when responding to the question I would hope that the reply would be from someone experienced in that field and would not only suggest a solution but also provide me with information about producing quality work. So my post was only to inform people that there is a better product available to produce this type of product. Doc, the method you speak of does work, but is not the proper method. If you were to research it, and call the manufacturers of both paints they will not recomend it, because it is not the intended use of thier product. I have put many of dry coats on myself, but why do it with the risk of destoying a multi-hour piece?" seems silly.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
posted
I do all my lettering, striping, and graphics with 1shot. I never clear over, and have not had any problems so far... but I've only been airbrushing since '80, lettering since '74. I have jobs out there older than some of the letterheads today... I've done a few show trucks and cars... you can see what you think @ www.saragraphics.com I understand about the *lip* or *edge* that Hassle is talking about, and I do want to learn about urethanes for that very reason. But to say that 1shot fades fast when thinned and sprayed has not been my experience. It WILL fade eventually, but most of the vehicles I do are either WORKING with a limited life span of 4 or 5 years, or if they're show vehicles... they're kept in a garage away from sunlight. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Your right..... why do something that takes backwords steps...dry coating..i only posted that because of this board..........and even though ive had plenty of incompatibilities with 1 shot over the years..you will not convince anyone here that....using a 50,000 spray booth ..1,000 worth of spray guns......hundreds of dollars worth of excellent time proven automotive paints..... and many years of experience....is a better application. then a can of 1 shot a few nice brushes and a little reducer....not going to happen on a site dedicated to sign painters who have feed there families with this medium........this board has memebers that grew up with the 1 shot and can paint it in there sleep..have painted everything with it.......so for me when in Rome do as the Romans........we know what the better app is.......but thats another post on another board................ive seen some great murals done with one shot.....the artist was able to pull off some great images......wether it was a glass smooth finish that would turn the heads of a catagory 5 custom car show ...well thats another story also.....ive never seen it happen in my 30 yrs...automotives win everytime........but i wont steal the thunder from a dedicated crowd of artist...............DocCyber
posted
Doc, I think you are over reacting here. I don't think anybody in their right mind is going to argue that you will get a better job with OS compared to an automotive finish! I agree with you wholehartedly about using the right material for the right job but please, puh-lease, can we not come to an understanding on just what that job is? You are right, this board is made up of mainly sign painters and pin stripers. We are NOT custom painters and with a few exceptions, DO NOT do show quality work. We ARE NOT called upon to do work on some piece of show art. The difference between the way your customers use their finished product and the way ours do is light years apart. They both want them to look nice but someone in the REAL WORLD, a plumber and his truck for instance, doesn't require a catagory five show car finish, whatever the hell that is. I can just see telling Ace Plumbing their new van's graphics are going to cost five thousand dollars and that we will need it a week or more! I've been around the car show circuit and have seen the exquisite work that abounds there. Most of it though is NEVER driven!!! Awards are handed out based on opinions. Politics abound! Sorry, but I'm a racer, opinions don't mean a whole lot to me. The last show I went to, a friend of mine pointed out a car, up on stands with mirrors under it. He made a big deal out of the fact that all the bolts on the oil pan were lined up in the exact same position! I wonder if there are any plumbing trucks done up like that? There is some mighty nice work being done out there on bikes and street rods by guys using a brush some sponges and yes, that dreaded OneShot, that are done in a few hours! The custom paint graphics require the high dollar equipment and take, well they take a LOT longer than a few hours. Both customers are happy, the guy with the brushed work didn't pick it to death and oh yea, he DROVE home that day I've yet to see one post on this BB regarding how to produce "show quality" graphics. Many of them inquire about street graphics or some other project. Whenever an answer is given on something like One Shot for vehicle graphics or clearing One Shot, we get divided into two camps, with "show quality" being the dividing factor. These are signshops for crying out loud.
Oh yea, one more thing I use HOK striping urethane when required, like twice a year.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ixlmemphis.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
He He He! Sounds like the old "three tiered price" game comes into play here... HOW BIG IS YOUR BUDGET!!!! Do you want a nice job, a great job, OR a show winner?
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
George i agree totaly and my last post was not to seperate the camps but to give them a place.......if my post sounded that i was seperating ..then my apologies i should have worded it differently...........i havnt seen a show car based in 1 shot muraled with one shot and then cleared with frog juice...hehehehe........but i was addressing the orig post which was the right materials for the job...........and a 3,000 buck urethane job spit and polished is not the place for a plumbers truck...i think id use vinyl there....with some of your great pinstriping.........but a classic chevelle with a candy apple paint job..(((.driven daily by the way ))))is not a place for a 1 shot mural.............thats all i was trying to say.............and i certainly dont want to divide camps just give them there place...and i certainly dont want to disagree with an ol pro like yourself... i think we both have a good grasp on the situation and probably agree on most subjects .........experience is a good teacher and it teaches the same lessons no matter where you come from and i suspect we have been taught by the same teacher..............."""".time"""""...................looking forward to seeing some of you greats at a letterheads meet........trying to find time is a bitch lately to do anything but raise a family...but when the boys are old enough to travel without having to babysit em then the wife and i can join in some of these get togethers............................hope this clears up any mis-comunication in this touchy subject ...............DocCyber
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