posted
I usually give the client a color printout of their sign (when the deal is done) and let them obtain their own permits. When I have to do the leg work, I charge $125.00 for two trips to a city hall in a tri-city area of a 10 mile radius. Being well known by all, I can get a permit in 1-2 days. The clients usually have to wait 10-30 days for approval. Am I being unreasonable?? How do you handle your sign permits?
------------------ John Smith Kings Bay Signs Kingsland, GA
Purveyor of fine signage and Inovator of good things yet to be
www.finewoodsigns.com
Posts: 816 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Obtaining a permit is one of the options, like installation, that can be deleted from my quote so as to down-cost. Normally, I obtain permits. Sometimes I have been awarded jobs because the customer found it easier to give it to me, since I was willing to do everything.
Maybe your area will not do this, but I keep permit applications on file and fax them in when I need one approved. This reduces my trips downtown to one. And if you can pick up two permits at the same time, you can make double your legwork money. Then, eat lunch next to City Hall while you're there and you'll feel like you're eating for free and getting paid for it, too.
Brad in Arkansas
------------------ Brad Ferguson 4782 West Highway 22 Paris AR 72855 501-963-2642 signbrad@cswnet.com
Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I usually don't itemize permit costs unless pressed for a breakdown of my quote by the client. If they want to save some money by doing it themselves I can take a little off. If the job was originally estimted without a permit, and it becomes an issue after the price has been quoted, that's about the only time I separate it. And the price can run quite high.
We live in an area of pretty strict regulations governing size, quantities, placements and colors. Virtually all signs of any substance must pass before an intimidating 'architectural review board' or spookier 'historic discrict committee'. These boards can even dictate materials and techniques used to insure signs are in keeping with the 'character' of the town. Their whims can be so ambiguous and arbitrary that I always recommend the client attend the meeting with me. We discuss strategies beforehand of possible concessions they can make to get what we really want. Christ, it's like going into a court trial. And sometimes I handle it just about like that too, working on an hourly fee. In one extreme case the preparation and permit costs ran $1500.
Even on 'normal' jobs, two to three hours can go into generating the required drawings, photos and samples for these events. In addition to the trip to fill out the forms and the actual costs ($25 to the committee and $10 for the permit - PER SIGN - that's $70 out of pocket for a site with 2 signs!) there's anywhere from one to three hours to attend the meeting, depending on where it is and how it goes.
I attended a brutal 2.5 hour meeting once and never got my case called when everything got continued till the next meet in two weeks!!! Akkkk! Other times its no big deal. Actually I just came from a meeting this evening that went smooth as silk. We were third up, all my ducks were line dancing, and we got passed in about 5 minutes. Whew! Preparation pays.
posted
In some cities in my area, the customer can pull his own permits. In most cases, it has to be a licensed and bonded sign company to get the permit.
I add a fee to cover the labor costs of the permit. The fee depends on the amount of labor and paperwork required. All aspects of your work should pay for themselves. You should not have to use your expertise to work for free doing grunge paperwork just because you got the job. In some cases, you will have more labor in getting the permit than doing the sign.
Sometimes, a customer will want to save my fee by getting his own permit. After I explain the process, he usually realizes his time is much more valuable. Personally, I would rather he got his own since dealings with securing permits is so tedious.
Some cities require information that is totally unnecessary. For a while, the city where I live required the exact copy on any sign within a 500' radius of the proposed sign. There was nothing in their ordinance whatsoever that depended on any sign within 500'. I'm sure no one ever looked at that information but it had to be provided or the permit would be rejected. I experimented with giving less and less exact information to see where their tolerance level was. They finally took that provision out of the ordinance.
If there is anything that will ever drive me out of the sign business, it is dealing with cities on permits. Fortunately, my secretary is getting trained on this. I just hope it doesn't drive HER out of the sign business.
------------------ A Sign of Excellence
Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I work in a number of municipalities, and I don't pull permits for clients unless they ask, then it's $100 minimum. Two of the towns I work in have Historic Districts; I charge $100 and up for prep and consultation (colored scale drawings and telling the client how to deal with the committee) These committees know my work and don't usually kick up too much fuss; my basic rule is "tell them what they want to hear" which means agree with everything, we'll fix it later if we have to. Years ago I wised up and started to charge $250 plus expenses for actually attending these sessions of stultifying municipal quackery; this gets me out of them most of the time. One bit of advice I can offer is to stay on the good side of the guy who actually inspects the sign after it's installed, usually the building inspector. Most municipal B.I.'s have a full plate and are busy looking at construction sites and building codes, and if they trust you not to cause them extra work, they will often give a clean bill of health on a job even if it's not quite what the committee approved. One thing I have NEVER seen is a member of a Historic District Commission climb a ladder to measure a sign or compare colors to a chart of "acceptable historic colors." Most of these clowns are far more interested in having the citizen go through the proper bootlicking motions at meetings, so they can tell each other about the important work they are doing protecting the "historic integrity" of their community. I know I sound cynical, but I've seen these pillars of the community at their intelligence-insulting and arrogant worst, and beleive me, learning how to do an end run is worth it to save a lot of aggravation in the long run.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been very fortunate in working with our town's inspections departments. Getting permits is very easy compared to what most of you seem to go through. I can have the 3 page form filled out though just a series of check boxes and a few short answers. I might spend 15 minutes on applying for a permit. I can even handle it vie e-mail. As for a fee, I charge $55 (one hour shop rate) + permit costs. I rarely have to spend more than 30 minutes getting everything done including the trip downtown if necessary. Heck, maybe I'm charging too little.
I have to say that out inspections department has done a great job of helping us.
posted
I gave up years ago trying to deal with the lunatics in my town. If a permit is required the customer has to do it himself. I have yet to do a job that would have been worth the hassle, and a few that were definately NOT.
------------------ "If it isn't fun, why do it?" Signmike@aol.com
posted
We work in a very restrictive area where we have a "architectural committee", county sign ordinance and a special bi-state regulatory agency (only one in the country) that regulates all things visual, auditory, environmental, etc. We have been in biz 5 years and I have never been hired to get a permit yet. We have a disclaimer on the bottom of our bid sheet that states permits are required and we have to be hired in writing to get them but everyone has "winked" and said they would get their own rather than pay us. So I haven't even learned the process yet. We have heard it has taken those trying to be good citizens up to a year to get a permit. Temporary banners and sandwich signs are illegal except for non-profits. A shopping center has a certain total square foot limit on signage- if everyone's unpermitted signage adds up to more than the limit, what is a new tenant to do? That is what one of our clients is checking out now!
------------------ Rick Cooper Sierra Sign & Award Lake Tahoe, USA www.engrave.pctrader.com $$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Posts: 135 | From: Incline Village, NV, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
What's a sign permit? In all the years I've done signs I've never got a permit. It is far easier to get forgiven than to get permission in my experience. I have fast talking skills.
Actually most of the sign work we do is part of a larger renovation or building project and the sign permit is rolled into the building permit which is the clients responsibility. Or else we do the sign permit thing with the development permit as part of the project design.
I do feel for you folks who have to deal with the bureaucrats on a daily basis though.
posted
I suspect the situation in Rick's post is not that uncommon; the regulations become so unworkable and such a pain in the ass to enforce, that they get ignored and signs go up without permits. The enforcement officer doesn't care; he gets his paycheck on Friday either way. The only people who get boned in these settings are the people who either try to follow the rules, or who annoy someone into filing a complaint. that certainly seems to be the case in my town.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic