posted
I have a customer screwing me for $367.00. I have never dealt with something like this. Can anyone give me some advice as to how to handle this. I will give you the short story.
I have lettered 11 trucks for this guy in the past. He phones in an order for some Prints for truck lettering. At this point I have no reason to distrust him so I order the prints as I don't do them in-house. His prints come in, I call him to set up a time to drop off the prints and get paid. He puts me off for a week. I call again to reschedule and get an answering machine. Leave a message and hear nothing(it's been a month and a half). I write a nice letter with a Bill enclosed asking for payment and also wishing he and his Family Happy Holidays. I still hear nothing. His fax Machine is turned off and I think he is screening my calls at this point. What's my next step?
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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can you show up at his place of business to deliver the prints? it's hard to collect for something if he hasn't accepted them and/or picked them up...that sucks. is he still in business? i guess after a month something must be up. unfortunately i don't have any graceful way of handling such a situation...i'd be mean and nasty if someone owed me $$ and blew me off.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'd drive down to his place of business. And nicely ask what happened? If he says he doesn't need the prints. then you can explain to him that he should have notified you, etc. If anything, at least you can get your money back, I would settle for that. Or maybe you could sell him the prints uninstalled.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3814 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Go to his place of business, ask for your money. Take a lunch in a paper bag. If he puts you off, just sit down in his office, tell him you plan to wait for the check and that you have brought your lunch so that you can stay. He won't like it and probably won't believe that you've got that much nerve, but I bet he pays you. Sounds sort of outlandish, but it's worked twice for me. It's probably illegal, but I bet he still pays up.
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Roy, did you take a hotplate, can opener, tablecloth, silverware and a drink dispenser? THAT would have been something to see. heh.............
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Several years ago I had a "new" customer order 5 sets of magnetics. He sent one of his employees to pick them up. I was told the boss would be by later to pay up. After about 3 or 4 times over the course of 3 months of stopping by his place he got in my face and told me not to bother him again or I wouldn't walk into his shop or anywhere else again! I found out he had a rather interesting rep and wasn't afraid to go BACK to jail. I decided to just write that one off to experience.
Live & learn...that's why I have a limit of $200.00. Any job over that and I require a half down payment.(especially relatives)
I know this doesn't help you now but like Alicia said try to catch up with him and see if there was a problem.
Good luck!
Jeff
-------------------- Jeff's Lettering Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling 5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il. 61008 815-544-0167
Surviving another day. Posts: 626 | From: Belvidere, IL USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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Sorry to hear of your misfortunes. You can do it the legal way (small claims court) or another way... I'm going to Small Claims court in January and can't wait to squash this lady who thinks I work for free!
She even helped me install the signs for her "upscale salon" and was totally jazzed. She wanted me to do some window signage so I didn't have an invoice. Here is where I should have known something was up as she wanted to think about her windows. Well by the time I got home I had 3 messages on my machine saying the signs were unprofessional, unreadable, etc. and she wasn't paying a dime.
I have prepaid legal and called my lawyer immediately and he said he sees this crap on a daily basis. I sent him our emails, timeline, how much time I had spent, materials, etc. and he said to write her a letter stating blah, blah, blah... So I did. After a nasty reply from her I had him send her a letter. She finally got a lawyer who responded to the effect that I had done the job gratuitously and it was so bad that she had to have another sign shop redo the signs. Of course the client probably forgot to tell her lawyer that she hung up on me when I asked what I could to to make her happy or the fact that SHE contacted a mediator and walked out of that session before it started.
Take the person to SCC and stick it to them! It is a hassle but I can't wait to nail this "snooty business woman". She'll either have to pay or she'll have bad credit for a long time
Best of luck,
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
I did a job for a new customer at my shop but I worked through an employee. I always asked for faxes with a signature so when the employee said that his boss wanted graphics for a second truck, I had him send me the signed fax with approval for the graphics. He did that.
I had gotten paid for the first immediately so had no red flag with the second. I did the graphics and made an appointment to do the second truck at my shop. The truck kept getting calls out and they asked if I could do the install at their place. We agreed to a time a couple of days later. When it was time, they called and canceled.
I could never get them to reschedule so thats when the red flag went up. I would call and tell them to at least come pick the graphics up and bring a check. After putting me off for a couple of months, I shipped the graphics to them and I believe I had them sent so that they had to sign for them. My reasoning was that if I had to take them to court, I wanted to be able to tell the judge that they had the graphics.
I did end up taking them to court and the judge ruled in my favor. He said that the signed faxes were actually a form of a contract. I got all my money (like $367.00)
[ December 27, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Get a license from the city to "pickett" his place. Then hire three retirees to march back n forth in front of the place with "UNFAIR" on the placards with your phone number below!You'll have your money before lunch!
A former employers of mine received a bad check from a customer who owned a restaurant. After the check bounced twice & was returned "Do not present again" we started calling him. At first, an employee of his would say he wasn't there & take a message that was never returned. Then the phone was constantly busy (8+ hours a day). Finally, my employer got in a cranky mood, grabbed the bad check at the end of the day & headed out for dinner. One walk through the full restaurant, very loudly asking for the owner and telling the employees he just wanted to see if the owner was to make good on this bad check before he filed charges solved the problem.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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"I have a customer screwing me for $367.00. I have never dealt with something like this." ----------------------- At this point we don't know if this fraud is still in business, or solvent, or in the country. If you don't lose your money this time, there are plenty more such scum, and opportunities to get swindled.
This would be a good time to hear yall's policies on Downpayment. If you don't know me, and I order a job that has startup costs, I presume that you would need some earnest money. Makes no difference to me whether I pay some now or all later, because I have to pay it all anyway.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Face to face...toe to toe...with all the information lined out complete with billing information.
Begin your conversation with "I'm here to resolve this and pick up a check". Don't offer your hand and for gods sake don't smile...just leave that comment hanging in the air...if he's gonna pay (you may have to negotiate the amount you'll settle for)it will be right then.
If not you put it down to experience and realize you've given up no more than probably 1% of your annual buisness. Pretty inexpensive lesson...especially if you don't repeat it with someone else in the future.
Small claims is a waste of your time and wil get you nothing (even if you are awarded the claim)the only recourse if he still doesn't pay is to file a lein (that you can't collect till he trys to sell out ...or he dies...and if he files bankruptcy, you never collect.
There will always be losses involved in bussiness...it's up to you how many and how much you are willing to put up with.
Knowing all this, don't let it get to you...it will only make you cynical...guess who won then?
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
quote:Originally posted by Monte Jumper: even if you are awarded the claim, the only recourse if he still doesn't pay is to file a lein (that you can't collect)
Not necessarily true Monte - at least not in Florida. I havn't had to test this in Massachusetts, but worth looking into...
I can't remember the legal name of it, but it can freeze his checking account till the judgement is met. The attorney who handled my small claims case was NOT the person who knew of this maneuver, so if one doesn't help, try another, It worked like a dream.
The process involves two steps - knowing the chump's checking account number, and verifying the funds are available on the hour the papers are served on the bank. It's instantaneous, and he will not be able to withdraw one dime till the court's warrant is settled.
In my case, I was lucky that the offender was another 'sigh shop' who happened to buy materials from the same vendors as me. Being tight with my salesman, I was allowed to accidently view one of Chumpo's checks and note the account number. Very cloak-and-dagger, but fun! The chump crapped himself and I get a huge grin out of it still.
Caveat; if your judgement is against the individual, you need his personal account, if against a business or corporation, you need the corporate account.
I don't know if MA has a similar law, but all states should. I'd love to know the formal name of the process and make it well known. If you find out Rob, please update us.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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One thing you can do that's legal around here is picket their business. I have only had to go as far as telling them we have a picket sign ready and my helper is on the way over to walk the sidewalk in front of their business or collect the money, in cash. They paid.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I took the guy to court, the judge gave him 30 days (I think) to pay. If after that time he hadn't paid, the judge would have put a bench warrant out for him. And in our small town, all bench warrants are published in our local newspaper. He could have had his wages garnished too. So I guess, we don't fool around in Michigan.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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As mentioned above, I'd stop in to his place of business and resolve this in a face to face manner. Usually the best recourse.
Hopefully, your past dealings with this customer have been good and can be used to smooth out the situation.
I won't say that situations like this don't come up. Lord knows I've had a few here myself, but I find that most customers respond better when they can see your face. Also, you can get a better idea of what the situation truly is in the same respect. Eye contact and conversation far outweighs playing phone tag and messages.
The hardest part of a situation like this is whether to stand on you business principles or write it off as a learning experience. Never a fun place to be because both positions can be financially costly.
Hopefully, you'll get the $$$ without too much grief, but even so, I'd make it a point to let the customer know that from this point forward, any future work won't be started without a 50% deposit. Leaves a lot less "grey area" should you continue to work with them later.
Not much of a solution, but hope it helps. Rapid
[ December 28, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I don't know if your in a right -to -work state or not, but nev. is and ALL verbal transactions are legal and binding. That said, it doesn't mean you will always win. Your first mistake, as already pointed out, is working w/o signed order and ample deposit. Shame, learn well, this may end up being a lesson. In one case I did here, I took an old fur coat and soaked it in lion bait and paid a visit to office of offender to collect. As it was a public business and I was doing no harm, the cops that were called, went away and the offender paid his bill to get me to leave. I agree w/others here about courts, they are like watch-dogs with no teeth, keep it legal and there are many paths of collection out there, or just write it off as a good lesson for little bucks. (sorry-$367.00 is not big money, cheap lesson)
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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$367 may not sound like a lot of money to some who gross $100,000 but for me and my Family it is. It will pay half a months mortgage or feed my Wife and kids for three weeks. I dare any of you to sneak into my house for three weeks and steal my groceries and let me find out. I will break your legs. I now realize my mistakes and will have to eat this but understand $1 is to much to steal from someone. I don't just write off $367....eventually I get mine!!! Yes, from this day forward all jobs will have a signed contract with down payments. And Yes, old Mr. Schittbag will pay someday!!!!
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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I had something similar happen to me. the guy ordered $1100.00 worth of vinyl letters and did not come to pick them up. he had caller ID and would not answer the phone so i had my daughter call from another town and ask how long he would be there she called me and told me i jumped in my truck with my pistol and drove 60 miles & gave him the option of paying or dying. he paid
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Rob. One thing that you can do is to give this guy a choice so that it becomes more advantageous for him to pay you, rather than ignore you. Every business has their own "Achilles Heel", and the fact that he's dodging you indicates that his is his creditworthiness. You are probably only one of many that he's doing this to. If you were to make some phone calls to his suppliers, and speak directly to the credit managers of those companys, outlining your difficulties with this guy, how long do you think it would be before he gets put onto a "cash only basis"? Send him a registered letter indicating that you're willing and able to do this....without slandering him in any way. Just informing those credit managers of your difficulties, and how this guy has been evading. Stick strictly to truth and facts only...nothing you can't document and prove.
He'll see that you're SERIOUS, and that you're willing and capable of hurting him far more than it's worth to evade payment of your bill. If his suppliers start denying him credit, that will make it very difficult for him, and my guess is that you'll get paid. You'll never get any repeat work from him, and he'll tell all his pals that you're a hardass when it comes to collecting what you're due....but that's not necessarily a bad rep to have. Fewer deadbeats will come knocking on your door.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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You don't have a next step except to chalk it up to experience and write off the cost of the prints, and cease to do any future work for that business.
If you try to take it to small claims court nothing is going to happen - there are no damages in this case because although Rob is out money for the prints, his customer does not have a product. At this point, the "verbal contract" hasn't been broken either, because without collecting downpayment it's basically saying "Full Payment Due Upon Delivery". Well, there has been no delivery yet therefore no payment is required therefore the only way to get anything out of court on this is to wine and dine the judge before the hearing.
Rob hasn't delivered anything, the customer does not have to pay for something he has not been delivered, and there's no way to force the guy to take delivery.
You could however, send a new letter stating you will start adding storage fees every day until he either picks up the prints or schedules delivery. It may or may not work, there are plenty of sources for him to get his prints from. In fact he may have found a cheaper source and had them do his prints - without a financial committment to Rob (ie: no downpayment) it's not like he would lose any money switching companies.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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since you can't use them anyway... mail them with some ambigous looking return address & a delivery confirmation required. Then he has the goods, you have (access to) the signature proving acceptance of goods... & you can start the legal proceedings.
posted
I had a deadbeat at a automotive shop stiff me. I made a 4x8 sign telling about it, put it in the bed of my my truck and had lunch in front of his business for 2 days, he paid in full....with cash..........I have heard his business went down....sorry bout his luck
quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: since you can't use them anyway... mail them with some ambigous looking return address & a delivery confirmation required. Then he has the goods, you have (access to) the signature proving acceptance of goods... & you can start the legal proceedings.
He'd be setting himself up for disappointment and more frustration if he did that, because he has no written contract, only verbal which despite what everyone says, hardly holds up in court when it comes down to it. If he sends the prints to the customer it could be viewed as giving the work away.
On the otherhand, it would be just as easy to send the prints to the customer then when he doesnt pay for them write it off as a bad debt or a give-away for tax time. At least you get a write-off for the full price of the job, not just the cost of the prints.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I don't want to be a killjoy, but don't get your hopes up about small claims court. At least here in my town, it seems that the customer is always right. And from what you said, you don't have any real proof that he actually ordered the signs. My advice would be to go and confront him at his place of business in a professional manner and present him with an invoice and ask him to pay for the signs. Be sure and take someone with you as a witness and try to get him to admit that he ordered the signs.
Best of luck to you
-------------------- Robert Richards Southern Ad Specialties Carrollton, GA 770-830-1501 sasga2000@a0l.com Posts: 138 | From: Carrollton, GA | Registered: Sep 2002
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Rob, I know how you feel. I have a customer who owes me 185.00, and wont return calls, disregards invoices, etc. I too thought about small claims court, but its ridiculous. At this point, Ive decided to write it off and use it as a display at the shop. I will get the sh**licker back though. One way or another. Word of mouth can cause customer problems y'know.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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I may just use the prints to letter my own truck with the words suck underneath them. I'll drive around for about six months with them like that.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Weren't you going to work for UPS? If so, I think it should be REAL hard for this guy to get any packages that were not smashed or at least several days late.
Just a thought
-------------------- David Cooper, The Sign Shack Enid, OK. Posts: 658 | From: Enid,Oklahoma, USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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This probably won't help much, but I'd damn sure make certain that any and all sign shops around where he could purchase similar prints know this guy's a deadbeat. And make sure he knows you told everyone in case he tries to sucker someone else.
posted
My suggestion is instead of "so-&-so sucks", put "so-&-so DID NOT PAY HIS BILL!" That way people know EXACTLY why you are mad at him and you are telling the truth. I think the "sucks" thing is libel, isn't it? (Even if it IS true!) You don't want to make yourself trouble by having him come back and sue you for libel.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Yeah, I'm a big talker. I will probably just end up eating this thing and go on with life. It is the angry side of me that wants to slice his tires, shoot his dog, ruin his buisness. In reality, My Mom raised me to be a bigger person then those who chose to be theives. This guy will someday screw someone whos Mother didn't do a good job of raising them and he will wear cement shoes. I do know most if not all the sign guys in his area and will be sending letters to my brothers and sisters in the biz.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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I favour your third option GO FOR THE KNEES. The same happened to me after signing a complete Day and Nite store in and out, main sign 60'x 3'. We got some high tensile chain and a quality pad lock and fastned his doors shut till we got CASH for the materials at least, then we negotiated for profit with 10% added avery day till paid.Oh forgot to mention his windows which i did for free reading "BAD BILL PAYER DO NOT GIVE CREDIT"
-------------------- Paul Priestley Signworx South Yorkshire England paulpriestley@blueyonder.co.uk
never too old to learn Posts: 66 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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Robert You are right in stating. You cannot or are not the banking system and can add a 19 to 29% surcharge on a annual base.for the sake of the customer:
Talk all you want!(Sir) But be prepared to sign the deposit..............
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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The situation sucks, to be sure. I've been through it probably a dozen times or so in the 24 years I've been in business...I always assumed EVERYONE went through this from time to time, but it sounds like some people have fewer problems than I do. (maybe it's because I'm so easy to get along with, huh?...HUH!?)
Trying to publicly belittle that party, or muthahuckin' 'em al over town, just makes you look as bad, albeit a DIFFERENT bad, then the guy that won' pay you.
In our shops,when an account becomes past due by 10 days, Paulette makes contact with them. We give them 10 more days to make payment or arrangements with us, then we notify them with a registered letter that we are filing a claim in civil court.
When it does go so far as to file a case in court, we go in loaded for bear. Bring in copies of your invoice, any notes you had, a work order, when you called and who you talked to, photos of the job, mail reciepts...EVERYTHING. When you win your case, (at least in New York), you can, after 10 days of judgement, hire a U.S. Marshall to collect your debt. The Marshall's fee gets added to the court-determined amount (again, in NY, that's the invoice amount, plus any filing fees) that he collects. It costs you notta.
Then, after 12-15 years, you have them beat up at their Granddaughter's First Communion party.
In my dozen or so cases, I've only lost one case, where the party I filed against actually did a better job of lying than I did telling the truth; so, I had to skip over the "collect my dough" stage of the process.
And I'm still gonna wait 4 or 5 more years.
It's a small ball we live on brother, what goes around does indeed come around.
Good luck with it.
Brian
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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I decided to just write that one off to experience.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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