posted
just want to sort of poll you guys and gals to see what you think about having a partner. I had a guy stop in friday, an old classic sign painter dude who can actually pinstripe, (remember that art form) carve etc. thing is, he don't know how to turn a computer on, which Is my strength, so we really could have a rounded sign shop, problem is, I just moved into a new building myself, I laid out all the rent, the deposits leg work blah blah blah, I would like to work with the guy, but also want to look out for my best interest, and paying him an hourly wage is out of the question??, any advice is appreciated
------------------ Ron Blake Rapid Signs Pittsfield, MA Spiccoli44@aol.com
Posts: 25 | From: Pittsfield, MA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Ron..I have been "in business" for about 25 of my 57 years. In that time I have had a partner on three different occasions. The partnerships lasted, in order of longevity, 2 years, 18 months and 6 months. In the case of the longest partnership it was my best friend who was involved. We are still the best of friends but wouldn't be if the partnership had lasted much longer.
I haven't had a partner in about 13 years and I like it that way. (Well Shirl is my life partner but that is a different situation!)
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
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You'd better be either "kissin' cuzzins" or married to the partner! Partners in our industry have a terrible track record.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
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"Partners are only for dancing and sex" is what I tell people after ending a 3 years partnership. Business partners are tough to make work, I work alone now.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
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Ron You should always watch out for best interest and it may or may not be to enter into some kind of partnership. You have to weigh in alot of factors, one of the reasons people enter into partnerships is to raise capital for new equipment, more adverstising, etc. etc. It's very tough to say from the little information in your post. How long have you known this gentlemen? How long have you been in business and whats your customer base like? (thats worth $$$) How well known are you in the area. Who said that hourly compensation was out of the question? (at least to see how ya work together) What kind of investment have you made to get started? You dont want to sell yourself short, computers were introduced into this business for a reason not to say that having the ablity to do more custom handletterd things wouldnt be nice. but it certainly isn't worth handing over half of your business for. Now on the other hand if your just starting out you dont have much equip. yet, not real familiar with the sign biz, and design isn't your cup of tea and your just slapping vinyl cause you can. It may be very worth your while to entertain the thought of a partnership. Provided this gentlemen has good design skills you will be able to set you apart from the competition.
anyhoot enough rambling on my behalf Best of Luck Roche
------------------ "Someday I'm gonna get a real job, HEE HEE" Signs Of Life 48 Carmen Hill Rd. New Milford, Ct 06776
Posts: 97 | From: Douglasville, GA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Partnerships in this craft can be strange at times, but sometimes ones knowledge concerning color coodinations, business tactics and friendship could be good. I've never had a partner in any legal business I've been in but yet have had close associates who I've worked with in the same space which worked out just fine. A duty to another person sometimes can take a toll on a partner who isn't proforming up to peak, but this happens even in marriages.
If you feel that a partnership is to both your advantages I'd say give it a try but if you think that asking strangers for advice who may not have the exact same personality as both of you is going to make the difference than you will never know. Unlike a sole ownership where the learning curve takes much more time, a partnership could work when both of you teach each other and payment is on a percentage basis.
In my line of business I work alone on designs and bring in what person is needed to complete the project if its necessary. Whether or not Dave Grundy believes he does not have a partner is irrelivent to the fact.
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Partnerships are created in non-white collar businesses most often because two or more people want to get into business, but are afraid to have all the responsibility that comes with it. So they think that somehow it will be safer to have someone else involved that has something to lose as well as them. The problem is, eventually it becomes clear that one person is pulling the weight of the other(s), and then the beginning of the end is apparent. Last time I heard statistics on this (and I am a stat freak), 93% of all partnerships fail before three years, and 98% of those that make it are professional partnerships like doctors & lawyers, who merely share office space and clerical assistance and have very little to do with each other. So I would strongly advise against a partnership in the sign biz. A two-headed monster is just that.
Partnerships... Well my partner is the wonderful girl I maried 27 years ago. Other than that, I've only had a partner in business once and that was brief. He was a great guy but after only a couple of weeks, it cured me of wanting a partner for life.
Many times I have wanted to do some big expansion or project. It seems just at that moment someone will come along who has the money AND wants to be a partner.
I remember back to what it was like to have a partner. Every time I have decided to be patient instead and wait until we can do it ourselves.
This is what has worked for me.
But everyone is different, so you must do what is right for you.
Only you can decide that. You have to live with the decision.
-dan
------------------ Dan Sawatzky Sawatzky's Imagination Corporation Cultus Lake , British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.ca
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as usual, a bunch of great replies, I'm definatley not interested in gonig in halfsies, but if this guy has work that he's gonna get anyway, but needs a place to do it, how should I charge him? he has his customers, so how much do you think is the way to do it, i've been doing signs for 8 years, but always looking to improve, this is the heart of it, how can I use this man's knowledge and expetise to my advantage?, yet still be my own sign shop??
------------------ Ron Blake Rapid Signs Pittsfield, MA Spiccoli44@aol.com
Posts: 25 | From: Pittsfield, MA | Registered: Feb 2000
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i got a friend of mine here who does nothing but paint, damn good artist....i consider him a "partner"...in the fact that when i get large paint jobs i got someone to help me get the job done. i dont like higths..he dont mind so if i get a job of extreme hight(anything i cant reach of a 6' step ladder)i will bid the job, give to this guy, take 15%-20% from the price and pay him the rest unless i supply paint and ladders then i take more..i also have a guy that does electric installs(i do pan faces for him at a wholesale price)and when i get call for electric i let him handle it ...and i get the work for the lettering....he just bought a bucket truck.....so hes more equiped to handle the boxes and wiring...these are what i consider "working partners" as for someone to tell me how to run my business and they loan me capitol.....no thanks....this is why iam self-employeed...so somebody who is dumber then me(but got lots of money,ive always found that people with money didnt alway get their money with their brains or talent) wont be tellin me how to run my business.....
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wouldn't have a partner as such....but have a great English/Australian friend who has been an art director in the film business in Aus for about 13 years before....moving here....what is it about blue eyed natural blondes!...anyway he has a corne´r of the workshop for building film/commercial projects as and when they come in and i have a helping hand as and when needed.....maybe you can help each other, as long as it works out fairly with no fianancial or other commitment, other than a desire to help each other out...it seems like you have a few things you can combine without being "partners".
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ron, it's your shop, your business. Utilize his skills to bid jobs he can do and pay him as a subcontractor. Mark up the work he does by as much as you can and still be competitive, whatever the market can bear. Make sure you both understand the rules of your arrangement up front - this is where most people go wrong and end up with a falling out and hard feelings later on. Be shrewd, but fair. Then be consistent in adhering to the rules you've set forth.
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Ron, A marriage is a partnership. I have heard so many men state that having a business partner is like having 2 wives to please. In a partnership you are accountable to one another. Have you considered putting the man to work on a profit sharing plan? Then you would still have control over your business.
------------------ Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454 PH. (504)386-3313 casey@i-55.com
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist.
Posts: 1891 | From: Ponchatoula, LA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Ron, Sub-contracting is a good way to approach this 'partnership' BUT! be aware of the tax liabilities if you provide him a place to work, tools and supplies. There's a thin line between an employee and a sub-contractor at times. Talk to your CPA about the ways around it like 'renting' him a spot in your shop to do 'his' work and renting him tools and let him take care of his own supplies and materials or buy them from you. Is he a neat person that would take care of your equipment and shop or would you be stumbling over his mess trying to get your work done? There's SO many things to consider, as some have pointed out above 'It's like having two wives'. I've tried a partnership in a computer business with two other people, didn't work. Tried an employee a couple times in my 33 years of sign work, it didn't work. Keeping your business, 'your business' and his as 'his business' and helping each other with various projects can work for the betterment of you both. Just my opinion on partners and business associates.
------------------ Larry
Elliott Design McLemoresville, Tn.
If you can't find the time to do it right, where gonna find the time to do it over?
Posts: 486 | From: McLemoresville, TN. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Here goes. If you get along well, it will work, IF you do it right. Figure up what the business is worth after all your grief in setting it up and sell him 49% of it in one 'cash on the barrel head' price. Keep the 51% and control for setting it up. Assign or sell the last 2% to someone you both agree on and someone who is neutral (an atorney will do fine). That 2% person will always vote in favor of the benefit to the company and will not take sides (if there is any profit to distribute). Pay based on work performance and leave enough in there for profits to split up according to how it works out. If he does not have enough cash to put down on the deal, sell him a %, based on the division. Depreciate all the assets on a five year deal for ownership purposes. If the deal splits up, you both bid for the stuff at the then depreciated base plus whatever you are willing to give. Make the deal smart. I have been here and done this. I recommend against it, unless you really have a match made in heaven. They can work. Get smart.
------------------ Preston McCall 2516 W 63rd St. Mission Hills, Kansas 66208 913-262-3443 office 816-289-7112 cell
Posts: 1554 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Without going into great detail, I'll share this with you. I had a partner once. He and I started out as friends, then became business partners. We both brought lots of talent and enthusiasm to our business. We both put in lots of time and effort to make it work. We paid ourselves a decent weekly salary. The partnership lasted about a year and half, then we decided to go our separate ways. We had shops about three blocks from each other and remained good friends. I never felt he was 'competition'. In fact, he inspired my work more than anyone ever has, even after the partnership dissolved. And he still inspires me. To this day, he's still my best friend. I'd much rather have him as a friend than a partner. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Partnerships are difficult to pull off. I think we bucked the trend. I owe any enthusiasm I still have for the sign business to him. Many of you know him here. His name is Mark Fair. My good friend.
posted
I wouldnt turn it into a partnership but I would consider setting things up as two seperate businesses sharing shop space.. Everyone's gotta have their own tools and supplies. Split the rent and utilities and have him listed on the lease agreement for the space so if he misses a payment it goes on record that he screwed up.
If the "partnership" dissolves, everyone has their own tools and can part their ways cleanly.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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never one to not throw my 3.8 cents in the pot... this subject is near and dear to me so i have a feeling it is going to be long winded.
i have a partner. we have been in business together since january of 1992. from the sounds of it, it seems as though we have defied the odds.
tracy and i had our own shops before we joined forces. we met in the spring of 1991. he had a shop in a building where one of my clients was. i stopped in and said hello. he stopped at my shop one day to visit a few weeks later. he needed some help doing a screen job for one of his clients. we started to swap off labor with each other. it became apparent that our strengths complimented each other.
we shared a lot of thoughts together and came to the conclusion that it was becoming increasingly difficult to maintain a shop in the business enviroment of western new york. we had both recalled an article in Signcraft magazine about two signmen in the pacific northwest who maintained their own seperate businesses while sharing common space together. we thought of the benefits of eliminating one rent, phone bill, utility costs, etc. at this point, all this was just bantering between two disgruntled sign painters.
we had both reached a point in our shops growth where it was becoming apparent we needed to add additional help for our respective shops to grow, but given the logistics of adding an employee or, at least, a sub-contractor seemed out of the question.
one day when we were having lunch, tracy asked me some poignant questions and really caught me off guard. i guess i must have had the right answers... lol! he told me that he had been giving the situation a lot of thought. he felt that if we were willing to go the "shared spaced" route then it was just a short hop and a skip to forming a partnership. the rest, as they say, is history...
partnerships aren't for everybody. some people can't or won't relinquish the power they have over their destiny to trust it to someone else. i trust tracy with my share of the business when i am not there. i have to or it would just drive me crazy. i know he isn't going to screw me just as he knows i am not going to do it to him. some days he pulls more weight than i do and some days not. we both have our quirks and we have learned to deal with them.
forming a partnership is a scary deal. you lose your own identity to assume a team attitude. you lose total control over the business to making joint decisions. it is a major adjustment to the way you think, do business, and carry on with your life.
communication is key. setting up ground rules, understanding them, and abiding by them is vital. we did. our agreement was simple. it was going to be a 50/50 partnership. you want $500 to take home that week? there better be $1,000 in the account to cover it. there was going to be no "make up" money later. all your equipment was no longer yours. it belongs to the shop. all your clients are no longer yours. they belong to the shop, too. you want to cop an attitude and leave? there's the door. feel free to leave anytime you want to. only you leave with nothing.
sound a little harsh? you bet it does. why? it got us through the growing pains we knew we were bound to experience. it stopped the "i'm mad and i'm going to take my ball and go home" crap that so many partnerships suffer from. there were a few times where i had to bite my tongue and i guarantee that tracy must have had his share, too.
so here we are, nine full years behind us. i can still count on my hand the number of arguments we have had. we talk things through all the time. we are able to talk things over with no fear. we have experienced an amount of growth that would have been unobtainable on our own.
i have never regretted taking on a partner. i no longer worry about personal glory and the such. we are a team and function extremely well together.
i thank my personal Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, each and every day for blessing me with a partner like tracy neal. i don't always feel like i deserve it but, boy, am i glad He found it in the big scope of things to.
i would be happy to discuss this with anyone who wishes to. feel free to call me at the shop or e-mail me.
have a great one!
------------------ Bruce Bowers DrCAS Signtech
"how great are His signs..." Daniel 4:3
i am a proud supporter of this website!
Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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I have not had a partner in my 25 years of signpainting/making. However I think a partnership could work out well. It just depends on the personalities. Also a male/female partnership might be ideal. At times I have to hire someone to install my signs, or do the things I cannot do. It is also a good combo for one reason being: males at times (not always) can close a sale better when dealing with a female customer and other times, a female can close the sign deal better dealing with a male customer. I know that some will not agree with this way of thinking....but it works. Not always. But a good part of the time it does.
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Fantastic!! Thats just how it is for us, both my self Pete Ball & my business partner Dave Crossly lifes just a peach. We are both custom sign nutters specialising in traditional letteing airbrush art & stylistic computer vinyl graphics ever since we teamed up things have just got better. Business tunover as trebbled & the overall look & combined image of our business is spot on, our success largely depends on a good solid friendship & being able to actualy create & work together, both my self & Dave are both happily married English Letterheads & wish you every success in your business future. Cheers Pete Ball artnsigns@wetpaintuniversal.com http://www.wetpaintuniversal.com ps. We are hosting this years intrnational UK letterhads meet & would like to see you & your friends over here in some times sunny England.
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Posts: 3 | From: Preston Lancashire England | Registered: Oct 2000
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(Well Shirl is my life partner but that is a different situation!)
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