posted
My son will soon graduate from Full Sail ( a school that teaches computer animation, among other media) in Winter Park, Florida
One of his classes was devoted to copyright laws.
He pointed out to me that, from what he learned at school, your work is protected the moment it is saved....but....but...but unless you pay the $30.00 and register it ( a process that takes 6 months) you have no leverage in a law suit and can not sue.
So I said to him, "You are telling me if I design a sketch for someone, I have to register it, fill out the forms and send in the money, or I can't fight back with a suit?" to which he replied: "That's just what I took a test on today...that would be the correct answer on the test!"
I know this subject has been beat to death on this board, but I thought this little bit insight would be helpful.
[ December 16, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
Dave, I know that this is the exact process for gettin' the copyright on a song: lyrics, melody, etc. Makes perfect sense that it would be the proper procedure for art as well.
One way around the 6 mo. wait and $30 per piece cost: Send a "body of work" ...If I recall right, it is $100 to do it this way.
Also, when you mail the tape/disc be sure to put the C in a circle,and a P in a circle, this shows not only copyright but publishing right too, and the date on it. Send it certified mail so that you get a signed card back letting you know it was recieved, also this is sure verification of when you sent your work in should any issue come up, because it does take about 6 mo.s to get it back.
It's been about 2 years since I went to the library 'puter and found all this out. . .I was able to get the copyright form printed out there and the copyright office allows you to make copies of it. There might be somethin', I've left out such as HOW you fill that form out, which is important. When I get to my office I will look at it all again an' see if I left out anything an' reply back here t'nite.
.............OR....you 'cud just sign that C an'the mo/yr, in a lil' circle, an yer hand signature across the bottom of yer original piece an' make yerself feel OK 'bout it, LOL, 'sides, most people who would steal yer work would'nt have the character to pay for a copyright anyway. I sound nonchalante about it, but in truth I never take that attitude with songs. . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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You got it Daddy-O. Been doin' it for years. Spent many buck. Got my stuff pertekted. So what! Thieves do what they do. And the beat goes on........
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I used to register annually for the majority of designs I deemed worthy enough to copywright.
But I have always been concerned about whether the lawsuit would really pay for itself.
In principle: Yes But wouldn't this just be career suicide? I can't imagine telling someone that the $300-800 they paid for a design, doesn't include release of copywrite.
We strive for few "concept" renderings. We attempt to steer our customers to our portfolio and explain that "x" sign costs "x" and our design is seperate.
I'll be the 1st to admit that when I want to slam-dunk a job, I'll do concept design, but I try to justify those jobs as a sales expense.
Hoping I'm not off-topic, I used to get frustrated years ago with my designs being made from someone else.
In reality the customer rarely needs just a sign. 1st they need a design, then a sign. 2 seperate billable aspects of their needs!
-my 2 cents
-------------------- Matthew Rolli AdCraft Sign&Design Hudson, WI Posts: 280 | From: Hudson, WI | Registered: Aug 2003
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This also varies state to state- a lady brought me some sketches, about 10 of them, that she spent $30.00 each getting them copywrited. But in Arkansas, the only thing protected was the actual sketches- the original art from being reproduced directly, not the content- so anyone could take her idea and recreate it- just not use the actual art that she copywrited. (She had sketches of a t-shirt design, with words and a couple of poorly drawn images) She would have to TRADEMARK her ideas of the designs to prevent someone from using the ideas, which cost a whole lot more than $30.00.
P.S. "Ideas" may not be the best word to describe what I'm trying to say- but hopefully you get the picture.
This would prevent someone from using your EXACT art, but not much more.
-------------------- Michael Clanton Clanton Graphics/ Blackberry 19 Studio 1933 Blackberry Conway AR 72034 501-505-6794 clantongraphics@yahoo.com Posts: 1735 | From: Conway Arkansas | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dave, did'nt find my stuff today . . . long story. . . .alotta my stuff is between my house, my shop and my Dad's as I'm moving things around a lot gettin' ready to sell his house . . .but I'm sure the web site given will be the ticket and you will find a phone number too where you can get a rep. to help as well.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Quoting from the website Checkers kindly provided you all: <<While registration is not a condition of protection for works first published on or after January 1, 1978, or for __unpublished works__, there are certain advantages, including the establishment of a public record of the copyright claim.>> (i added the empasis on unpublished works, which is what most signs are).
You can "register" your design the week before you take the guy to court. You don't have to have registered it prior to its being infringed.
The "real" reason to register a design is to prevent any mis-claim of ownership. For instance, if Bob at Acme signs claims to have come up with the very same design on the very same day you delivered a sign to your customer, then having the paper trail will help you.
MOST copyright infringements come from people just going ahead and copying the thing and NOT from people claiming to have created it themselves.
(did that clear it up?)
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Hi Scooter, Yeh yer right. And when you go on the site you will see the proper steps to take if this is somethin' you'd like to do. I think this would be a good idea to do with any art work/ layouts, etc. you made that did NOT sell. Organize them as a body of work an' save money that way. Then if another customer wants to use a design from that body all you have to do is make their name-changes to the art. It's also EXTREMELY important that you put the P on there as well as the C because then you have the publishing, as well as copy, rights. At least this is important with regard to music...don't see why it'd be any diff'rent with art.
For ex.: You write a song-(lyrics & melody), no one can "copy" the song, but they could play what you sent in on a tape or CD, over the air...and you may or may not get a nominal $ amount for that, depending on if you catch 'em. With adding the publishing rights tho', they may neither copy it or play it without negotiating a specific deal for that right. Failing to do so is more serious infringment in other words.
posted
man, here I go sum'more too.....filibusterin'
I wanna 'splain why we might wanna think about copy/publishing rights on UN-sold work and that is because I don't care how careful you are, somewhere on the road, you know you have let a prospective customer take the art home, or left it with him at his business. Or in the interest of time, you faxed it over, or you e-mailed yer fancy 'puter rendition, or ever-how all that works. ...(I ain't gotta be a rokit'sine'tist to foller thees deetayls)
How 'bout the proposal to the city or corporate big-wigs that required full renditions to scale, and all minor details. Think about it. If the job sold to a lower bidder, how would you know that Mary Jane-Historical advisor-your city, did'nt make a copy of yer work to take over to Mary Sue-Historical advisor-neighborin' city, sayin' "Hey, I know your budget's a little better than ours so here goes ya'll a great layout for your new signs" and Miss Sue takes it to their regular sign contractor and says this is what we want!" He in turn does'nt know whether the city paid a firm to lay that out or not. He pro'lly wont ask an' they might lie if he did.
What I'm sayin' is, mabey there should be an entire form letter sent to all such clients about ever using your work . . .I don't mean a little disclaimer on the art or in the proposal, I mean a form letter sent out to the client after presentation of any job you don't contract, warning about your copy/publishing rights, etc.
Then, it's up to you, if you really wanna have it legitimately on file with the copyright office or if you wanna bluff.........
posted
You dont *have* to have a work registered in order to pursue legal action, you could take 'em to court without the registration, but in a court of law your case will not stand up without paper proof.
That being said, unless you're going after a multimillion dollar company, taking customers to court over a sign design yields no gains whatsoever. You'll spend more in legal fees to defend your copyright than you'll be able to squeeze out of some low-buck customer.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Copyright laws can be a tangled legal issue. Unless you are very specific about how an image may or may not be used, you run the risk of having something "stolen" and reproduced.
My understanding has always been that you have a year to legally register a copyright. For immediate protection, you can mail yourself the artwork, with a copyright symbol on it and the date, as described in an earlier post, and leave the package sealed. That way if it needs to be pursued, there is a definite date attached to the material. While that may not be sufficient for artwork being mass-produced and sold in quantity - such as music, logo-bearing items, etc. - it should be sufficient, I would think, to protect an artist concerned about a one-use design such as in a sign.
This is an interesting thread, as I've been asked to sketch a design for a proposal for a number of "welcome to" signs for a local municipality. Given that I trust Town Hall about as far as I can throw it, you can bet anything they see will be copyrighted, with an explaination that I will pursue any and all infringements.
And while I admit to having been rough on Dave on several threads in the past, I want to say I appreciate his posting this information.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I firmly believe if you are paid to design a logo, THEY OWN IT! Period. I think some throw out the copywrite thing out to make up for sloppy customer service, that way the client is locked in without recourse. Nice way to treat someone, huh. Or, it may be that they are afraid to charge a fair price for the initial design, figuring that they will get the money over a long term forced legal contract.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cam, I believe the courts have a problem with the "poor man's copyright" concept of sending yourself an envelope with the design in it. Here's the problem, and a good lawyer will raise it. You could periodically send yourself dated EMPTY and unsealed envelopes. You store them up and have them ready for any potential copyright problem and then put the piece you need in the envelope and seal it. Presto. Proof not-so-positive you designed it six months ago, or six minutes ago. I'd be more inclined to consider getting a Notary Public date stamp a design, but then, I am not a lawyer.
Mike Jackson
-------------------- Mike Jackson Golden Era Studios Jackson Hole, Wy www.goldenstudios.com/ Posts: 390 | From: PO Box 7850 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Golden, you are correct..the "poorman's copyright" is worthless. The reason for the legal copyright is the research that is done at the copyright office to find out if the material is already copyrighted. If they cannot find a match, they will issue it to you. Note: if you send in a "body Of work" and there is already a match in their system for only one photo, they would return the whole body toyou and you would have to find out which thing it was, delete it and restart the process. Could get sticky huh?...But hey, $100 for a body of work?...you could get a LOT of stuff on a disc......
Rick (Beisiegel), What about artwork that was never sold, never contracted on a job. You know it's yers. I know it's yers. But what about anyone else who somehow gotta hold of it? Just a tho't bro.....
posted
I agree with Rick. I get paid for logo design and then release it. Most of the time we get some work out of it. We do charge for sketches and run a watermark and wording describing our fees along with the sketch in case someone wants to shop the sketch around. I'm unaware of someone using our sketches, but it could happen. If I do find out and investigate it that customer will be billed, and then we'll see.
You're going to get screwed from time to time, but in nearly 25 years of business, I have been stiffed less than 10 times, and about half of those we've won judgements in small claim courts and the other half I've repoed. By law once a sign is up it can't be repoed, but we do it anyway and have never been challenged. If we do I would want to make a stink to give the complainer the bad advertising they deserve.
One thing nice about a small town is it's self cleansing. Tradesman talk amongst themselves and deadbeats get blackballed. Before long nobody wants to work with them. We do live in a state of paranoia from time to time and it sounds like the fees and the wait will be worth it for those who need royalties from their designs.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thanks Bill, I think too many artists are full of themselves, and their ego is as big as a bucket truck, (see warm erection post..)
Anyways, I too have been screwed very little. I get repeat business because I earn it with superior customer service, not some lame copywrite.
Shelia: I don't normally design a logo without some sort of fee. The fee is lessened if they buy a big package, (truck, trailer, sweatshirts, cards, etc..)
[ December 17, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Not to start to much trouble but copywrite is to protect your client just as much as yourself. It is in the designers interest to protect his client by providing copyright, and servicing the client with the interest of keeping design integrity, it's part of the identity package, not a hindrance to the client. I believe that in terms of ownership, the client "owns" the logo, copyright is to keep it owned by those with vested interest, that being the designer AND the client.
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