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i have to do a sunset scene background on a half circle cut out of aluminum( 18" x 36")...if i scuff the aluminum with a scotch pad...use ben moore impervex...then use pelicud over it...that will work right??? and since the aluminum is baked enamel white i shouldn't have to use a primer...right?? just checking...it's a rush job and i already have the perfect colors in latex. just looking for some affirmation...lol
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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We use latex on aluminum all the time. I'm not sure what you need the pelicud for...not familiar with that product and I don't think we use it. I'm not the painter though, Bill is. I will refer this question to him.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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No primer needed. I don't know what that other product is, but if it's a clear, don't use it. Double coat all colors and maybe triple coat reds or oranges.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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ditto's here double or triple coats. Karyn, I just scuff with sand paper but the scotch-brite is good too . . . I don't kno' about the p..e..l ....er, I fergit how ya spell'd it . . . but it'll work fine 'til it ever starts chalkin' a little then you can go bug-juice it or whatever . . . no need of primer yer right. Have a great day!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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i would not gar-on-tee this job as anything less then TEMPORARY SIGNAGE. would you use latex on a vehicle? i wouldnt......ive seen some of the "art school" kids vehicles with all the latex paint on them, was not the best coverage. you would be better off using automotive paint spray cans and a mask.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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OP -With exception to vehicles, 100% acrylic latex paint will out perform 1 Shot on sun exposure signs. It's less vulnerabnle to the sun's UV rays. Get with Gary Anderson someday and he'll straighten you out on this.
I wouldn't go through the trouble of using latex paint if this weren't so, because latex is difficult to work with -- it doesn't cover like sign enamel, and despite what people think it's not ready to go out the door quicker than 1 Shot just because it dries to touch quicker. It will block and stick for weeks, so you don't want to stack latex coated signs together. Certain latex sheens will not receive vinyl graphics without problems. Try priming two MDO signs with latex primer and stacking them on top of each other and you'll need the jaws of life to seperate them the following day. Flat latex is more forgiving than the glossier sheens. I could write a book on all my experiences and frustrations here with water based technology.
We got a chance to tour Belvediere, IL this summer to see the murals painted in '97 and the murals painted with 100% acrylic latex house paints are outlasting the oil-based sign enamel coated murals. In my town I've got both systems sometimes side by side, and the results tell the tale. Again, the sun is the big enemy for alkyd (oil) based enamels and if you live in a rainy place or forested place or your sign faces north don't bother with latex paints. Vehicles get turned and their sun exposure is therefore reduced. My experience is latex paints have a more difficult time adhering to glossy surfaces without sanding or scuffing them first.
I use prepainted aluminum signs like Karyn described and I scuff them with red scotchbrite pads, lay them down flat, spray 2 coats of the background color, wait a whole day, apply Mactac mask and spray 2 coats for the letters. If you roll your background color, you'll have trouble putting on a mask and may have to paint the background color over the mask again to get a controlled bleed so the next 2 coats will pull off sharp. You then have to wait another day or at least several hours before you pull off the mask. Any outline or additional handwork will be slow, because this paint does not flow out nice and smooth on a metal surface. Even black needs to be double coated. This is not a quicker process, but the paint will last. Some manufacturers state 20 years, Sherwyn Williams Duration is a lifetime paint. Dark rich colors are a problem, but Gary Anderson has a line with enhanced dark colors and I'm sure he will visit with you at length the next time he gives a seminar at a Letterhead meet if you're in attendance.
If anybody else has something to lend or has experience using both kinds of paint, they should jump in here and contribute. I feel its a mistake to consider latex paints for a quickie sign if you have to handle it , flip it, turn it over or whatever. You'll wind up leaving finger prints in it even if you swear it's dry enough to handle. You're just going to have to trust me on this. I've already had these kinds of frustrations. If, however, you're going to paint on a brick wall or sign on site and not drag a ladder across what you think is dry, you might want to try acrylic latex.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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ok...i think i'll just use one shot...i cut the 1/2 moons out of yellow aluminum...i'll fade them the way they're suppose to be ...then on tuesday i'll throw on the horse in vinyl. thanks guys!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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ok bill, your statement about not using latex on vehicles......is the key here. why would you treat a sheet of prepainted aluminum any different then a metal vehicle? the alum sign panel will behave just a like a vehicle surface. i havent had any good experiances with latex, and i would be hard pressed to wait all that time you waste for it to dry. iam an old "body n fender" repairman, and ive learned the use of automotive paints.....and i would never paint alum with anything other then automotive paint or one shot. here i can get alum panels in most basic colors, already painted. i can buy a qt of A/E auto paint, shoot a panel, either alum/MDO, and 3-4 hours later...letter or vinyl on it. ive had vinyl not stick to latex, especally the flat....and the high gloss never lays down totally to a sheen like automotive paint, never looks as good in the shine dept. as for longevity....your car paint is made to hold up 5-10 years....depending on how its taken care of. latex on masonry/wood buildings, fences etc. ill agree with you there..... someday.....ill try it,but automotive paint is far superior....to any latex....thats my story n iam stickin to it!!!!heheheheheh
[ December 12, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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"That other stuff" over latex on Dibond IS permanent. Period.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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OP, latex far outperforms any other paint on mdo, hdu, etc. It needs to be high quality though. Not the discount store sale paint. I use porter, which is a really high quality latex, and have great results. And drying time? You have that backwards Joe. You can two coat latex in the same day. I aint knocking one shot, cause I still use it, but as far as backgrounds, latex is great.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Latex on vehicles, no, as I said, because #1 you would need to scuff the vehicle and to letter and stripe vehicles you'd lose a customer if you scuffed the vehicles prior to hand lettering and striping. Solvent based paints have the bite of the solvent to help you. #2 vehicles are going to get pressure washed and on a cold day you change the temperature of the metal rapidly with pressure washing thus solvent based paints work better here due to their more compatible expansion and contraction rates. Also solvent base paints level out better and look glossier making them look the same as the automotive paint background.
I use HOK on my striping and lettering paints on semis of which I do a couple hundred each year. When one hits a deer or has an accident and is back in the shop, and I have a chance to witness the performance of this paint, I have been impressed with how much better it has been holding up compared to 1 shot. 1 shot was the only paint I used for close to 20 years on vehicles. HOK has never pressure washed off, but doesn't level out quite as good as 1 shot, so I take that in consideration when designing taped off graphics. For fine line striping it is fantastic. Here again it is a solvent based paint and a catalyzed urethane which is even more compatible with the automotive paint background than 1 shot.
But for a sign that doesn't get pressure washed, doesn't get turned and just sits there facing the sun I've found acrylic latex on prepainted aluminum holds up extremely well as I have several out there. I like the lower sheen and I do not apply vinyl on them, instead I cut a mask for the copy and spray them. Most insurance companies will give you a better rate if you work with paints that have a lower solvent rate for your spraying. You can roll latex and apply a mask, but there is a learning curve. What I like is a satin finish. I think you get a rich looking surface. I noticed better color retention with latex over 1 shot after the EPA made them adjust the lead content of this paint.
For that matter you can use Matthews or other similar paints on prepainted aluminum and maybe cut down on the labor latex requires, but you are uping the solvents in your shop and spending more on the paint. It's a trade off. But I'm tired of hearing people say that latex is crap, because it isn't. It just needs experimentation until you find the right methods of applying the paint and I guarantee it will give you a great looking sign on a prepainted aluminum surface for years to come.
Also you need to find a 100% acrylic latex paint from a leading brand which is usually the premium line of that brand. I've also read that a high content of titanium dioxide is important.
I've never had much luck with automotive spray can paint, but have never tried it on prepainted aluminum.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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well i guess i should say that it is temporary...they would like to get a zoning variance for more square footage, then do a bigger, nice carved one in the spring..........so don't go fighting about latex vs enamel you guys.. they both have their good and bad points.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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i live in fla so i do most of my spraying of car paint in the yard(2 acres). as for insurance i dont have that to contend with. i also scuff the new alum panel before i spray it with car paint. cost wize, i dont know what you pay for high end latex, i buy a qt of A/E for $20, then i buy reducer a gal for $20, the paint i will reduce 50% so i will get 2 qts of paint from one. one qt will paint a 4x8 with a little to spare. all automotive paint contain very high concentrations of titanium oxide(or white pigment)this is why and how you can reduce automotive paint by half! i mixed automotive paint for many years and most colors you mix contains a white, this is the titanium. same stuff you use in acrylic/oil paints. then if you add the hardner that is made for A/E paint, it will outlast anything. ive done signs this way for 20 yrs, and have never had a failure or paint peel. usually the sign outlasts the business!!!! we all have our preferances, and ive read some of your post with the problems you have encountered with latex......its ok for its intended purposes......its sorta like mac vs pc....they both get the job done........just operator preferance....
[ December 13, 2003, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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No fighting here, right O.P. Just good healthy discussion, and I'm telling you what I've experienced. If you reread what I said, you'll see I have had my problems with latex, but my goal is to not have to spray it. I am getting better results with brushing and rolling. I just wanted you to know this paint will hold up on prepainted aluminum.
Other than HOK for small stuff and my striping, I'm not going to be using automotive paints for bigger signs, because around here they have to be sprayed, the paints are extremely expensive, and since its 10 degrees out this morning I'm not going to be spraying anything out doors today at least.
I do think water based technology is the future and I wish the sign industry had better tools and more interest in moving this direction. The nail's already in the coffin for my health, with all the solvents and crap I've ingested, but maybe for those to follow the future will be brighter.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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i agree bill, my father died at age 50, and he had black lung from workin coal mines and copper mines during WW2. i used to work in a steel mill, nothing i do now is THAT DEADLY!! most guys that put in 20 yrs in those places dont get to live 10-15 more years, after retirement, due to all the crap air they worked in.
[ December 14, 2003, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bill and John Thanks for opening my Eyes to latex I never thought you would use that on a sign..(Besides HDU and the sorts) Its amazing the misconceptions we get from lack of knowledge. SO I have some questions the about the latex. Do you use an additive like Flotrol or something to put in the Latex to make it roll out smoother and if your spraying do you reduce it with Water, Alcohol and could name some more brands you like. We have a Sherwin Williams here in town and the Hardware store carrys the BM Imp But I really never cared for the BM as I would rather use 1shot. I would be real intrested in trying out some diffent latexs as there such a better chice of colors.
posted
Bill -- This paint is not going to work like 1 Shot at all so don't expect the same results. I use it for my longer lasting signs. I still use 1 Shot for my interior industrial murals, banners and signs that face north or are more temporary in nature. Latex can be fast to execute if you use a flat or satin sheen on prepainted aluminum provided you spray your colors on and limit it to a background and 1 additional color. I lay the panel flat and after it's scuffed I spray the background. I don't thin the paint unless the can has been opened and the paint has thickened. Use a mask for your copy and if one line of copy is a different color than the next use a shield to keep the colors clean from over spray. I use my Binks #7 gun for all my latex spraying at about 60lbs. Turn the nozzle to no fan pattern and pile the paint on. It somehow goes on orange peely but dries to a elegant velvet finish, which I've grown to like.
I did experiment with Floetrol when I needed to brush an outline. It's O.K. I guess. We've found the synthetic/natural hair mix brushes work the best. You don't get the greatest results brushing oulines and shade colors directly on the prepainted aluminum. That's why I like to spray the background first even if it's white on white prepainted aluminum. You get a better brush drag that way. I use Mactac spray mask and you need to make sure the paint is thoroughly dry before you remove the mask. The mask will litterly fly off. It's so easy to remove, but if you're like me you'll want to pull the mask right away like with 1 Shot, and this just doesn't work because the latex is too flexible and stretchy when it's half dry.
If you have have outlines and shadows, you can be real creative using glow lines and cut the entire image in the mask, so that you can spray the copy but then paint the outlines or shades while the mask is on. Everything needs to be double coated so don't think of this sign as being a cheap sign, but think of it as one that should get between 10-20 years.
I had some letterheads over this weekend and showed them the process and some of the signs that outlived the customer that I have in the shop and everyone was surprised they were latex. It was like -- HUH!!
A lot of folks are looking into it. By the way Sherwyn Williams makes great acrylic latex paints. I think the murals in Puducah Kentucky's flood walls were painted with their MetalLatex and the jobbers working on them that we visited with this summer were hoping to get 30 years out of them. Some colors they thought might have to be touched up though. Sherwyn William's Super Paint is a great paint and their new Duration supposedly has a life time guarantee. These giant companies have the technology and friendly and knowledgeable folks you can visit with. They will recommend the proper paint for whatever substrate. There'e a leaning curve and I'm still on it, but I've made a lot of progress and ironed out a lot of bugs. Good luck I'm only aphone call away.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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To achieve great results spraying 100% acrylic latex you need to use the proper spray equipment. That would be an $800.00 HPLV system. This gun will spray your house or you can use it like an air brush for T-shirts. Just FYI. The decorative artist painters here in Bloomington showed me things they have sprayed that looked as good if not better than automotive paints.
Commercial painters are light years ahead of Letterheads in using and achieving perfect applications of latex paints.
posted
That's a good point, Dave, about spray equipment. You sure can't get good results with a Wagner Power Painter. HVLP guns are great, because they keep the overspray down. I have one for HOK clear, but the tip isn't big enough to get latex (unthinned) through. My Binks #7 is indestructable. I put my latex paint into beer cups and spray right out of there, and put a rubber glover over the cup for touch up when I'm done spraying. I found that turning my fan pattern to minimal fan really cuts down on overspray. To flush the color out you simply remove the inlet tube, and nozzle assembly and run that rascal under the sink under hot water. If your not going to use the gun in a while it's good to run some WD40 through it to keep the packing nuts from drying out.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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