posted
I was going to put this in Design/price but it doesn't really fit there, since it is realy just a pricing question.
let me set the stage: A local advertising agency has contacted you to do some custom signage for a client of theirs, you do the first sign and build in the price of design and the rush they put on it. everything goes smoothly. Now the agency does not want to be involved and you are contacted directly by their client for signage, this is a PITA customer who wants everything for no money and is not loyal in the least (actually flaunts that they will check other pricing because they KNOW they can get a better deal). You want to get the business because it will undoubtedly lead to a lot of work, but you don't want to give your work away either. So thats where we should start.
Now let me know what you would price these things out at, after a few responses I'll let you know what my estimate was.
#1 - Store display & Menu Menu - 19"x48" overall, 1/2" MDO w/1shot background color, HP vinyl lettering, real bamboo trim, digital print logo on foamcore. Display - Bamboo, Wood slat w/vinyl symbols, etchmark vinyl on sneezeguard
#2 - A-frames Qty 20. please quote plasticade and cheapy black metal version (forgot the name) Screenprinted 2 color graphics on coroplast
#3 - Future In-store signage will be ordered 1 at a time but will eventually consists of 10-15 total signs like this. again, 24"x44" overall, 1/2" MDO w/1shot background, HP vinyl lettering, real bamboo border, & digital print logo mounted on foam core.
thanks for reading my long post, please post what you would charge for these types of signs...
Thanks, Dave
[ December 11, 2003, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Dave Cox - That Sign Guy ]
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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This is certainly not going to help you with a price, but my suggestion would be to pass. It has been my experience that anyone who says they can get it cheaper somewhere else usually will. Even if they don't they will never be satisfied with your work because they will think you have overcharged them, or they will be constantly trying to get you to add something extra for the same price.
As for jobs in the future, you can't pay your bills with promises. If they are always wanting something cheaper why would they let you do their work in the future? Even if you got this initial job, all they have to do is show it to a competitor and they will produce it cheaper because you have already worked out all the problems.
Sorry, but I guess I am just in a negative mood this morning. I've never had a good experience with this type of customer. Those future jobs just never seem to work out.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I know this has been said before, but, what I would charge has nothing to do with what you should charge.
But keep this in mind. You need to take into consideration the extra time($) you will spend with a PITA customer.
For example We had a nail salon call the other day. Drove out 25 minutes to measure windows, discuss what they wanted, can we reproduce the "logo" (which was actually the background picture on a catalog-ordered gift certificate, etc. Got back to the shop, figured a quick price based on square footage, design time, install/drive time, etc. Before we could call them with the price, they called us. "We forgot about this price list, could you come back out here to tell us how much?"
I asked if they could come to our shop, so that they could see some samples and discuss it here....no, new to the area, would get lost. Could you email the info to me.....no computer. Could you fax the info to me.....no fax.
"Ya know, there are 2 sign shops between me and you, maybe you could find them easier." Added a couple hundred bucks (foreseeing more PITA)to the window lettering quote, and gave it to them.
We may actually still get the job. But at least the extra time (at least some of it) is compensated.
Another thing to consider, in my experience, ad agencies never want to give a client to their source. If they are willing to be rid of him, maybe he's more of a PITA than he's worth.
Sorry this doesn't answer your direct question, but I just thought I throw it out there.
Good Luck!
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Ditto! I have heard to many promises lately. They will always be able to find someone cheaper in this market. I would not waste time trying to find the sweet spot with them. Give them a quote for what you feel the signs are worth coming out of your shop. If they decide to find them cheaper elsewhere then let them go. I made the mistake of giving a quote, getting underbid then giving in and doing the work for the other guys price. I wish I had never done that. I did nothing but cheapen my own work. HIT THEM WITH A PRICE AND STICK TO YOUR GUNS. I can't give you a good price on these as this needs to be based on what your shop gets for signage of this type.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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I spent quite a few years in the Ad Agency business, and believe me, there's a reason they backed out of this one.
Anyone with this kind of cheap-ass attitude will usually never pan out to be a souce of future work, and as stated previous, wil never be happy with your price.
EVERY experience I have had with these type resturants has been negative to the maximum degree. They are just as you describe PITA. And pride themselves on being master negociaters, when actually they are cheapos
I love their foods, and they seem to run successful food establishments, but, noone wants to deal with them. Don't get me wrong, I am not prejudice. But, I have spent much design time as you obviously have too, only to be shot down proudly by the owner purly based on price.
You will also notice design does not matter to them. ONLY FINAL PRICE. You will also notice the final product installed by someone else will reflect the cheap price they paid. Let it go Dave!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Another approach... Present them a bill for the design time you have in those sketches you made so far. DO NOT give them hard copies of the sketches however. Tell them you will deduct that amount from the actual sign work that is "promised". IF they pay the initial "design fee", you will proceed with the work. If they balk at that (THEY probably WILL) you have a good excuse to gracefully back out before you get any more time in this and they DON'T have any designs to "shop" with. If they pull out their wallet, you deduct a bit off of each sign that you do for them and mark it "design fee discount". Of course you have inflated each sign to include the "design fee discount" to your normal level of costs and then you just take it off again as a discount. They THINK they are getting a discount, they are happy and you have at least SOME of your money up front and aren't losing $. I know it is a bit round about, but they with either put up and you get money up front or they will go somewhere else and you are spared a LOT of aggravation! It's worth a try....
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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YEH! Wait! GO Back! Bro! Go back to the "let me set the stage" paragraph where they said somethin' like: "..... KNOW they can get it cheaper somewhere else"
Here's all you gotta say: (and smile and vigorously shake their hand )
"Oh, fine! Glad to hear it!. Call me if you ever need anything else"
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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RESTAURANTS.....are right up there with lawerys, used car dealers, and realtors. only thing you can count on with them is NOW, not future signs....they may last 2 months or 2 yrs....so dont bank on FUTURE WORK. i get em....with the same tude....they want "best price", and thats what i give them!!!!! learned long time ago....these places have no loyalty.....i had a freind of mine who was in the produce business. he started work at 3 am, to get to farmers market, then by 5:30-6 am he was delivering to all these different restauants. now they treated him same as they would a sign guy..."YOU GOT CHEAPEST PRICE....I BUY FROM YOU, someone got cheaper then you....i buy from them!" they are there to make MONEY.....NOT FRIENDS!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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the theme seemd to be to dump them and let them become someone elses headache, I agree.
What I ended up doing was giving them my best price (with me still making plenty) and I found some ways to cut cost (buy in bulk, screenprint, etc). They have approved the a-frames and are shopping around for the rest. whatever.
I've learned to weed out the crappy customers pretty well, but when winter comes and things start slowing down the last thing i want to do is turn someone away quickly, If I end up doing anything else for these guys it will be with the realization (expectation) that they will eventually go to whomever has the lowest price, funny because I feel like telling them a super-low price then showing up with a large piece of cardboard that has spray painted stencil on it and say "this is what you get".
The hard part is that the signage competition here is plentiful, and as much as I keep saying to myself that the shops that sell for so cheap will eventually go out of business, that doesn't seem to put food on the table when the potential job walks away to the Signs Now down the street. It may be true that these quickie sticky shops come and go, but as soon as one goes another one pops up... seems like theres always someone who could "do it for less"
it's unfortunate that quality seems to not be a factor in most purchases anymore.
so anyway heres my prices (which are embarrasingly low). I usually price things higher but the material cost is low and the design has already been paid for.
Sign 1 - Menu & Display - $750 (my normal would be about $1500)
Sign 2 - Aframes x20 - $135/ea (they even tried to weasel me down on this ridiculously low price)
Sign 3 - Smal ID Sign - $350/ea (they will order about 5 at a time)
If anyone in the area wants to come underbid me... go for it.
Dave
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Show them the door and tell them not to let it hit their butt on the way out. Thank you very much! If there is a customer I dispise, it's the "can't you do it cheaper, there will be alot of other work in the future." Yeah, right!
[ December 12, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Roy Frisby ]
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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