posted
So like, 1-Shot has been around for only fifty years. What did signpainters use before that? Is there anybody out there who can still remenber the days before 1-Shot? I had an old friend of mine, who passed away in the 80's. (Flo Mills AKA Annie Green Springs ) Along with 1-Shot she would also have good old fashion, lead based, enamels in her sign kit. Is this what guys would paint signs with in the fifties or earlier than that? These are the things that I ponder about at 1 AM.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Way back in the late forties there was Sherman Williams paint for signs and Ronan has been around for ever. One Shot was the preferred paint among most sign people.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Bills got it...but before Sherwin Williams there was Acme Paints (Sherwin bought them out)I used to use a lot of Dana color (came on the scene a little after One Shot).
I even have a few unopened cans of Colomade...color in oil that was made by the Colorado Paint Company, Denver colorado.1930 /40 era.
There were a lot more regional paint manufacturers around the country ...it would be interesting to get a list of those. Anyone?
Mobile oil went into the Sign Pint biz in the 60's but haven't seen any "new" cans around in a while (they had a hell of a Blockout).
Interestingly as long as Ronan has been around I don't recall them ever making "Lettering enamel" only the more heavily oilbased "Bulletin colors"
Most other manufactures had both Lettering colors and Bulletin Colors.
Another interesting fact is everyone of the paint companies offered up the exact same color line...their reasoning I suppose was to sneak into the competitors pocket...but it worked for us too.
Excellent post ...I'll watch this for more!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Alicia... Didn't folks grind up colored rocks for pigment, mix em with some bear grease and urine, and blow it through hollowed-out cattail stems onto cave walls? OH! That was BC, not B1. Love Silly Jilly ps ask Bill Berberich...he knows the answer.
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Back in the early 50's, Sherwin-Williams was the big gun in bulletin enamels. Tibbets-Western was also a popular lettering enamel. They had a heavily leaded white that really covered with one coat. However, it was a little on the grey side and didn't have much gloss. I think the best black I ever used for truck lettering back then, was Dupont Dulux. (An automotive enamel)
The first outdoor sign company I worked for did a lot of walls and we used to make our own background white out of white lead, boiled linseed oil, and japan dryer. (Lots of stirring). We also made a black for walls out of crankcase oil, lampblack and litharge. It took forever to dry, but it was usually the last color we put on, so it didn't matter on a wall.
-------------------- Jerry Mathel Retired Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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For the first half of my nearly 30 year sign painting/making career I hadn't even had the foggiest notion there were special paints for lettering. I just used those little cans of pre-mixed colours and cheap touch-up brushes from the local harware store. But then I was from the backwoods of Northern Saskatchewan. Life was much simpler then!
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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Hey Jerry....still got any of that black DuPont Duluxe? Wish I still had a gallon of it! It was the BEST black enemel I have ever used.
If memeory serves me right, SW enamels covered real well, but didn't flow as nice as 1Shot! Your formula for white was also the same as we used for caulking boats, with a lil less linseed oil!
I personally never used the crankcase black.
[ December 11, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
When I first started to learn pinstriping in the early 50's I used Met-E-Namel, an appliance paint I got at a hardware store. After asking questions to some of the old guys in body shops, I started using brushing lacquer, right up until the time Paul started making his Dagger-Lac. This is just an ol'stripers point of view and from what I could remember
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Before the early1900's (I think) and the advent of commercial paint manufacturers, ALL painters had to make their own paint. Raw pigment was grinded with linseed oil, terps, white lead (and what else?). In the old days, house and sign painting was done by the same tradesmen too.
Good question A.J. Now maybe some "real" paint experts can chime in as well.
posted
Hi Alicia, I have a few sign painting books published in the 20s, 30s and 40s. They all have "recipes" for mixing paints using pigments (ground metals or minerals) with a variety of binders and flow agents. Some used a plain (or white) base and added colors. That's why I sometimes chuckle when people talk about the "old days" meaning "before vinyl" as though 1-shot was "always" used by sign painters.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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WR.... The "what else" you're trying to remember is varnish, spar for some things, rubbing varnish for others. Stuff like brick walls didn't get much varnish. I can remember helping to mix paint for wall jobs, in the 50's, when I was a kid. We used Pratt & Lambert oil colors...they came in quart-sized cans, but the were sold as 5lb cans ( I think, I can't remember the exact weight no.) It was a thick paste, so you took a big glob and put it in a mixing can, then slowly add linseed oil 'till it smoothes out, then add in some varnish to make it a nice consistency. Drier or turps would be added at the last minute, with the quantities varying according to what you were painting, desired drying time, etc.
It was fun. I liked that part of painting...the actual paint mixing.That was during the ages of 10 and 15 for me, '55-'60, when I was really taking an interest in stuff like that. I can vouch for the fact that Kem Bulletin colors were on the scene, with good old 1-shot also being used for the best stuff. I think I heard that Kem was the first commercially mixed sign paint...ya reckon that's true ? Also we had Mobile paints for backgrounds on occasion. Another paint we used alot of was XIM, which we used to prime neon signs, whose metal cans were peeling. Since it comes in clear, you could scrape and prime one of those signs without losing too much copy...on a repaint job.
There was one other liquid that was kept in with the paint stuff, and that was the old scotchlite activator. That was the evilest stuff we had. I know now that is was vinyl chloride I was probably smelling, but back then, nobody knew what the hell that stuff was, just that it was BAD. Now that would make a good post....people's various experiences with THAT stuff !
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I started pinstriping and lettering in the early 50s with Sherwin-Williams white bulletin. I remember mixing in powders to get colors. For black, I used stove black mixed with clear spar varnish.
posted
I have a can of pigment, the ends are soldered. This was gifted to me by the man I apprenticed to. It was given to him by the man he apprenticed to. These cans went into these presses that had cranks on the side and you cranked out the amount you needed and added the boiled oil and spar and white lead...stir till your wrist feels like falling off, then get some smoothe strokes andf great coverage.
I don't remember how many of those presses there were on the wall in the old shop, but the ritual of mixing color was like foreplay.
One Shot was on the scene when I got into the game, but the mixing was one of the apprentice chores.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just wanted to add one point of interest. Those Pratt& lambert oil colors also had different color names, more in line with artists oils. Yellow ochre, burnt sienna,raw umber, etc. I wonder who started the more modern names ? Somewhere in here there was an adoption of highway standards, that gave specific numbers to the colors, so 104 red would be the same in all parts of the country with all brands. What year was that I wonder ? It seems like I should know that, but I forget.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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paint manufacturers changed the names to reflect them using new and diff more durable pigments/pigment sources as they became available or were discovered,mostly for the outdoor or industrial mkts
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I collect antique and vintage sign supplies, and amidst my collection, I have three pint cans of "Lawrence Quick Drying Colors" which advertise themselves as being for sign painting, and the decoration of "Cars, Carriages and Coaches". I've learned the "cars" refers to advertsisements on train cars. From what I gather, these paints were not just for lettering, but actually for the striping and ornamentation of carriages.
I had one duplicate, which I gave to Tod Swormstedt at the American Sign Museum, http://www.SignMuseum.org and he suspected it was from the turn of the century, based on the label (which looks like it came right out of the Strong book!)
I also have some cans of "Kemps Lettering Enamels, which I think are from the 50's or early 60's.
While I'm on the subject, anyone that collects old sign stuff, old signs, or just has that stuff around...why not donate it to, or like I've done, will it to the American Sign Museum.
The American Sign Museum is the only real venue for keeping the history of this trade alive, and you'll even get a tax deduction for your contribution! (It's the end of the year..nudge,nudge,wink,wink)
Keep on keepin on
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Signpainters originally mixed their own paint, combining raw pigment with white lead. This mix-your-own paint held up very well, but as you know, there were health hazards related to the lead and they were eventually outlawed with the environmental legislation of the 60s and 70s. Many regional and nationally known industrial and house paint mfgers, marketed their own brands of lettering enamel, bulletin colors, etc. at one time or another. Thanks to the donations of many, including most recently a turn-of-the-century tin donated by Brian the Brush, and Rick Glawson's entire collection of sign-making material tins, the Museum has been building up a nice vintage collection of some of the regional brands, as well as the national brands, mentioned. The growing collection got a big boost from Matthew Beneduce-McGrath, who donated a major collection of about 35 tins/cans of 1930s-50s sign-making materials. We catalog every item donated to the Museum and can find them in the database a number of ways, including key word, etc. If anyone wants, I could put together a list of what we have on-hand presently, including bronze powders, sizes, etc. as well. I don't have Rick's collection in-house yet, but should get it soon. We also collect catalogs, both of manufacturers and distributors, which would add more mfger. names. And of course, we have access to a complete collection of SIGNS OF THE TIMES magazines, beginning with the first issue in May, 1906: Ads in the magazine are a great source of such information.
-------------------- Tod Swormstedt American Sign Museum 407 Gilbert Avenue Cincinnati, OH 45202 ph 800-925-1110, ext 336 fx 513-421-5144 Posts: 35 | From: Cincinnati, OH USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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As I remember the Outdoor Advertising Association had the numbers associated with the colors, and any can of 104 would match. Then came Chromatic, and their colors didn't match. Darn near drove me nuts!
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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When signpainters made their own paint, drying time was long. According to Heberling's _Basic Lettering_ (1922), the first coat of background on a panel needed 2 days to dry. During that time, you could mix up the 2nd coat: 2 lb white lead ground in oil, 3 Tsp raw linseed oil, 1 Tsp turpentine Japan. Then brush that on in 3-ft sections. 2 more days' more drying, and you're ready to lay out.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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In reply to Rick Sack's reply above: Yes Chromatic did have several colors that were a little bit off standard, but boy did I fall in love with their Process Blue!
Curt Stenz
-------------------- Curt Stenz Graphics 700 Squirrel Lane Marathon, WI 54448 Posts: 590 | From: Marathon, WI 54448 | Registered: Dec 1998
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I also used the "crank machine" attached to the wall method! Wonder who made THAT item? When breaking out on my own,Sherwin Williams not only sold the Kem Luster Bulletin Paint,but the Fitches and Cutters to be used. The crushed pigments in "TUBES" came from Pratt-Lambert to be added to varnish as a carrier.
Althought I still have & use paints with lead in them(used for UV blockage)
The IDEA that wall lettering doesn't hold up now days. Is being promoted by the SAME people who think a MAHL STICK is a "crutch"
IF you start out knowing ALL of the (basics) You will end up knowing how to utilize them.
Hope this helps
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I would say something on this post but I've already forgot most of what anybody had to'say Hmmmm? Anyway all of the above. I think it was Tibbets & Westerfield Jerry.I haven't heard Kemps mentioned in quite a while Brian.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thanks Jack and Monte for jogging my memory on Tibbets Westerfield. I may have "mis-remembered" the name, but I DO remember how good that TW white covered.
-------------------- Jerry Mathel Retired Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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OK Here are a few from my shelf of memories King Cole signpainters colors both in oil and Japan (1920's and up to 1950's); Skoler one shot lettering white and other lettering enamels (1930's to 1956 I think); along with Acme, Old Colony and Benjamin Moore Bulletin enamels; Keinelcote, Cooks, Interstate, Miller, Martin, Pittburgh and Pratt's Bulletin enamels; McMurtry Signwriter's oil colors (black was the best, varnishes too and Radio white readymixed white lead enamel); Synkote, Charles Howell and Komac sign painters oil colors; as well as the others already mentioned.
FYI we used my 1929 OAAA standard for matching the Chromatic bulletin and lettering colors to the original formulas in an effort to get cleaner colors. Most of the others had been matching to previous batches and had wandered from the standard for years. And by the way, there originally was a color for every number 100-200 with no number for black which had arbitrarily been assigned 21. We then wandered with the pms colors too so there you have it.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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