posted
Yesterday, I had an interesting call that bothered me a bit. A lady called wanting to know our Website address. Since we don't have one, I asked her what she wanted to find out. I was more than willing to dispense any information she wanted, and was also willing to discuss her signage needs and show her our portfolio, if she wished.
She then went on to explain that she was "surfing" sign shop sites, and saving pics of signs she saw and liked. She was then going to present this collection of swiped ideas to her sister...who would then go about "designing" her a sign....based on her collection of stolen photos.
Those of you with on-line portfolios, might begin seeing some very familiar looking signs out there, if this practice becomes more common. I don't know too much about website design or maintenance, but perhaps it may be time to consider making it difficult or impossible to steal photos of your work off of your websites.
I explained to this lady that what she was doing was stealing...but she said she saw it more like taking satelite signals that are "just out there". I decided not to waste any further time trying to educate her.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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That's blatant PLAGIARISM (for sure). But it has always existed, and there is not much you can do about it, other that consider it (some kind of) "backhanded" compliment.
We all "borrow" graphic ideas from the work of others. Indeed, there is no way to learn how to create signs without copying something or somebody.
posted
There are two ways to look at this. One is that it is stealing and plagiarism, the other is that it is looking for ideas to work from. I “borrow” concepts all the time from signs I see that I like. I think: “Cool! I’ll have to try that someday!” It is usually an element of the design or combination of materials and shapes used that I’ll want to adapt to one of my own designs.
I have had people bring me drawings they worked on after surfing sign sites. I don’t look at it as a finished product but as a starting point to do my own interpretation of the layout and construction. At least, I know in advance where their tastes lie.
When I work with management companies, often they will show me a series of photos they have taken of apartment signs they like. Many times, there will be pictures of my work in there. One time, all but one of the photos was work I had done. They said, “I guess we called the right company.”
Where I would have a real problem is if some company was passing off pictures of my work as their own. I recently had to send a “Cease and Desist” letter to a local outfit that was doing just that. They had a couple of pictures of my signs on a brochure they had sent out.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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but I also agree that that was a very rude phone call and the womans sister I doubt could produce the same signs as in the photos she was stealing so I wouldnt worry to much about it
posted
Hiya Ken, Since you don't have a web site, you may have blown a sale. If she saw your designs & liked them, you might have been able to sell her on the full package - design & production. I have no problem with it. It's a lot easier than driving all over town & taking pictures. She's looking for ideas - exactly what your portfolio is supposed to do. It's an idea generator, just like we use our trade mags and the portfolio page for stimulation. I would have been as polite as possible and more that willing to answer all her questions. If she chooses to use her sister for the design, she will more than likely need someone else to build the sign for her. I would like to be that person. Now, if she was posting them to her web site & claiming to be the original designer, that would be a different story.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I use a "Right Click Disable" code on my pages.....Won't keep out a hacker....but good for the average idiot that can't operate his own pencil.... The only thing anyone can lift is on the very first page......after that .........they get a message "Property of CJ Allan"
I tried to post the code here...but UBB won't let me........ Tried puting the code in quotes, and a couple other things.........no luck !!
If anyone wants the code, I'll e-mail it to ya, or tell me how to post it here for everyone..
PS........Checkers, et al:..........Do you let people come in and borrow your portfolio, to take and have copies made of all your work............for "ANY" reason.....??
Same thing............
[ December 10, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]
-------------------- CJ Allan CJs Engraving 982 English Dr. Hazel, KY 42049
posted
To me a portfolio is not an idea generator, it shows your capability.
I don't think there is nothing really new in sign design.
I look at other signs for inspiration, I even do photo studies of theme parks and signs I like, but there is a fine line between inspiration and plagerism. I probably would have sold them on the idea of a design, otherwise, go to the book store or get a camera and pay for inspiration.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Everything we see goes into little corners of our mind and when we design, we pull things out of those corners, although we usually don't even know we're doing it.
But this woman... I'm not sure if she has hugh balls or no brain. To call and ask for pictures of your work so her sister can design her a sign...knowing me the way I do, if she had called and asked me that, I would have either laughed at her or asked her in a very sarcastic tone if she's like me to give her sister a pirated copy of the sign software I use too. Maybe her sister can come over & I'll drop everything so I can teach her the business.
Had a guy call me once, asked if I had a projector. I thought he was a salesman of some sort. After I said yes, he asked if he could use MY projector to do a mural he designed on a trailer. I told him no. He tried arguing with me! I told him I didn't know him and didn't lend my equipment to friends let alone total strangers. He then told me he didn't see why my not knowing him had anything to do with it, but suggested if I didn't want to lend it out, that he could come over to MY shop and do the job there. Yeah, I'll drop everything and invite a total stranger into MY shop to use MY equipment. WTF?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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i like work done by mike myers, dan antonalli, geo perkins, "shep", vince balestralli, ed roth, von dutch, and a lot of other ive seen...AND take some of their design "cues" from!!! now this lady aint gona make her sign look exactly like anything you hAVE DONE...unless you have used her wording and placement of such. there are nice signs, generic signs, and empecable designed signs. you aint done nothin that someone else hasnt done...very similar. i dont copy exactly someone elses work, but iam sure ive done something really close to someone elses designs. so i dont think you got anything to worry about....other then the fact that she WILL find someone elses work and take some "elements" of that design and incorperate it into her WORDING of her sign.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Stories like that, Kissy, are proof that the most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. I recall the woman who called and wanted to borrow "those stencils you use to make letters." When I said I didn't use "stencils" she got mad and hung up.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ya know, twice in the last year I've gotten calls from people wanting to know if they could send down their in-house "artist" so I could show them how to use our computers so they could layout the signs they wanted. Both times when I asked why they could'nt just lay them out on theirs and bring me the files I was told that they did'nt know how to do it on the computer, that's why they wanted me to show them.
Funny how I missed out on those sales.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'm in agreement too, that there's nothing wrong with working a general design "concept" into something you are doing...out and out duplication to the last detail -- NO.
Right click cancel out's on web pages can't stop you from getting the image. CorelDraw for one has a "Capture" program....which very simply takes a snapshot of whatever is on your screen. There are lots of screen capture programs out there....but yeah, I'll admit, probably not a lot of people are going to go out and specifically buy one to do what this woman was after.
She sounds like a flake.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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best think i can do for these types....i tell em go by a copy of PRINT ARTIST, if you cant design a sign in that...then you aint never gona......then when the they bring me their crap design i can go into same program, and show them how much better it would look if they would look at my ideas of what i think their sign should look like....works every time.....they do a basic, then i know what they are lookin for and i just add bells and whistles..
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Ken I think you took what she told you all wrong. You should have a web site with your portfolio up on the net and I see no problem with what this customer told you she was going to do. She was just gathering ideas of what she liked, it is a good way for her to figure out just what that is, and then she was going to have her sister who maybe is the creative one in her family pull or pool her ideas together. Now she may never have had you make her sign and now we know for sure she will not be your customer. She might even use elements from a sign you have produced in the past I am sure if she has two eyes she might see something you made as she drives around in her car. Do you create every sign you make as a complete original and do you allways make sure it is different from everything else in the world that has been done. I think not
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think she is the one who is "out there." Why didn't she just do a search for sign websites instead of calling them? I would have given the same response Ken. If sissy is a sign designer, then why does she need photos to look at.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
As an apprentice were all encouraged to keep morgue files (even got credit for it for apprentice school) those dusty old files were filled with "ideas" include soup labels, pictures of signs, the most "modern" magazine layouts, graphic info from places far off...etc. I kept it for years then one day it turned up missing (house cleaning I suspect)...while I hear what you're saying and can understand your frustration dealing with someone without a clue to your feelings, I find the internet much the same as my old morgue files and can understand someone using it that way.
The fact that she said what was on her mind was truly tactless, but at least she was honest in her intentions.
All in all, we might just as well get used to it, if for no other reason than it's not going to go away.
We all buy software with clip art and digitized art from old publications and use them freely...yet they were all plagurized to a higher degree than the woman intended for her purposes.
Mind you the key word here is "buy" never the less we're all doing it to one degree or the other.
I trust you gave her a sales pitch while you had the opportunity.
And life goes on imperfect or otherwise!
Good post!
[ December 11, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I first read this post when it had 0 replies, and I thought, another whiner posting. You all have changed my mind. Especially Brian/Checkers. If we could turn these train wreck clients around into our shop, that would be an accomplishment. Oftern times I find that stupidity is really entrenched ignorance. Easy to confuse the two.
I feel it is my responsibility to educate my client....Never buy or shop for anything you personally don't understand. Wheather stocks and bonds or a DVD player or a sign, learn then shop. Just my take
[ December 11, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My first reaction when I read this was "big deal, it's not like anyone else has had a creative thought that wasn't sparked by something they saw somewhere else." It's called "Inspiration".
Then I got to CJ's response with letting a stranger take your portfolio to get ideas for someone else, and I can see his point.
This is a case of "Ignorance is bliss." The fact that you know what the person is wanting to do just eats you up, but if someone calls and says "Hey, what's your website address?" you'd gladly give it to them if they never mentioned their intentions because you assume they just want to see your work. If someone asks me "What's your website address, I want to save some images for someone else" I'd likely tell them to take a flying leap. Come 'on, at least make the other "shop" do their own research.
That being said, there's no possible way to keep people from snagging images from websites.. impossible. You don't even need to buy image capturing software, every computer already comes with screen-capturing abilities installed - Print Screen - which also negates any efforts to put watermarks in your images that only appear when someone tries to print the pictures off the web. You dont even need to capture images, software to download the entire contents of a website, images, HTML and all, is already present within Windows installations.
Resistance is futile. You will be pirated.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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This is kind of bizarre. I mean we all borrow ideas. We use alphabets designed by others, we wear clothes designed by others. In my hippie days I thought I was a non-conformist until I realized I was conforming to become a non-conformist. There are few original thoughts and a gazillion followers.
What's bizarre is the lady picking up the phone and having the audacity to ask a busy person to lend something that is going to benefit her without giving anything back in exchange. When we exchange things here on this BB you have the feeling you're going get some help, but you're going to turn around and help somebody else when it's you're turn. For somebody to just call you out of the blue, man, I just don't know. It's kind of like race car guys dropping by and asking you to go to their benefits so you can donate money for their hobby.
I'm not sure I've come to grips with all this web stuff. It's been making me paranoid. You don't know if you're going to be spied on or hacked or what. I've always been suspicious of go-betweens, part of it probably has to do with the fact that when I started there was nobody to talk to about how to do this or that with the sign biz. I had to figure it out by myself. Everything was trial and error and a whole bunch of F--- ups. It might be my own jealousy that I went through the school of hard knocks when I probably could have picked up the phone and called for answers. It takes guts though, to do what that lady did, doesn't it?
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hi again folks, and thanks for many insightful replies. I guess that my reaction to this call was most like what Mike Pipes described as ignorance being bliss. Initially, I did honestly try to sell her on our services, but she was adamant about her sister being the one who would do her design AND sign for her. Essentially, she really wasn't in the market to buy any sign or design from myself or any other professional. She simply wanted to look at and copy pictures from websites. Since I don't have a website, this really didn't affect me, but it just rubbed me the wrong way. Your collective replies though, do raise some interesting possibilities.
While I may have "blown a sale" as Checkers has suggested, I honestly don't think this lady was about to be sold anything. However, who knows how many others there are just like her "out there", and how many more of her ilk will there be in the future?? She may only be the "tip of the iceberg" or merely a harbinger of many more yet to come. There are ALSO those unscrupulous competitors as well, who would have absolutely NO QUALMS about harvesting and copying photos, and reproducing something very close to what you've designed and shown? Everyone isn't a Letterhead, or subscribe to ethics or ideals. Possibly, those with nice on-line portfolios have ALSO blown sales to those sort of individuals as well ? Folks with her sort of mentality think "Why pay, when I can simply copy?" They may not get as nice a finished job, but they also NEVER PAID for a single design either!
As I have said, It really hasn't affected me, as I prefer to meet face-to-face and directly interact with potential customers. It's kinda old-fashioned, I know, but because of that stance, this situation was revealed. Hopefully, she was only a rare individual, but possibly there may be more like her "out there".
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hiya Ken, I apologize if you took offence to my previous reply. After reading many of your comments here in Letterville, I should have known that you would have handled the potential client in a very professional manner. And you would try to satisfy her needs. Unfortunately, this sounds like a worse case scenario. This person wasted your valuable time and there was no chance of making a sale. That would burn me too.
Sincerely,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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C.J., Although my portfolio is weak when compared to many artists here, it is viewed by thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people every day. It's been shown on TV, reprinted in newspapers and magazines and it's featured on a web site or two too. If people are inspired by my work, great! It means I'm doing my job well. If an up and coming artist finds inspiration in my work and decides to mimic me, I would be flattered. However, if he copies my work and tries to pass it as his own, that would be forgery and I would have a problem with that. Anyway, my point is that in this business, like others already mentioned, there's really nothing new with quality sign design. That's the problem with the second oldest profession - all the good ideas are already used up.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Copy or not copy ,ok!ok ! i'm not sure of my text cause i'm first french,sorry! but ,for me,of curse be copyed it's not fun at first but when you really think about it ,it's only the assholes who's copy the best one! that's all, by copying us they admit that they are only assholes without imagination that's all.we are the best one so it's normal that the other one whitout talent or imagination gonna copy us ,and event you're doing like c.j. and turn off your right clic ,they just have to take something like qwick snap or auther thing like that and they got it ,or they take only pics of our job to copying it ......so what can we do .....just admit that we are the best one here!!and the other one's gona never beat us ,cause they only copying us ,when you"re copying something,youre always the second ,not the first......that was my ideas.....and that's all sorry ,cause maybe my english is not good ,but the way i think is my way and i think it's good ...........
just remember that herewe are the best!!!!and those copyers are always second cause they're always waiting for us!!!!!!!yess
-------------------- Steven Girard steven@lettragesgirard.com
posted
...mabey she was, as some have mentioned just tryin' to put something together to give to a legitimate shop to help illustrate her mind's concepts . . . but I'm thinkin' she's a kind'a "do-it-yourself" type that's tryin' to save some bucks and if that's the case . . . no worries, because more than likely she'll try to fabricate it or have it done "cheaply" and she'll brag to all her friends about what a thrifty wench she is and in mabey a year or less the thing will warp, rot, fade, crack, peel, split, rust, bend, buckle and ...none of the people she bragged to will ever go to her for a sign because she jus' don't have the lovely experiences you've had perfecting your craft. A lotta people can sing. A lotta people can sing and write songs. but only a few handfuls of people get 'em published and only a few of the published ones make the top 40. There's a lotta "wanna-be's" A lotta people can draw, paint, make "crafts" and the list goes on. But there ain't but just a few on the face of this earth that can put it all together with beautiful lettering and a business head to package it up into a sign or sign system and make a great living doin' it. Mabey she's a "wanna-be" Mabey she's a "gonna-be" I reckon time'll tell. The way time tells around here there's a lotta "wanna-be's" and "ain't-never-gonna-be's", LOL The higher my prices go the more they come out of the woodwork. The more they come out and "do their thing", the better my stuff looks and price becomes mostly no object. Have a smile and a hand shake for her if you ever meet her. She'll prolly sit down and have some humble pie with you and tell you she had no idea what she was gettin' into.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Tactless client looking for eyecandy is no different than any of us looking for inspiration in signcrafters or letterville portfolio page... we just know the best places to look ...
I don't airbrush but I've turned at least 4 locals onto Mike Lavallee's website, not to copy, but to learn... it's all evolution.
posted
I'm not too surprised that someone is surfing around looking for "inspiration" for a sign. I've been caught doing something similar from time to time in the cereal isle looking for color combinations. The unsettling part to me is that the person doing the sign isn't looking for the inspiration themselves. The customer is likely to come up with either a horrible idea or one that is so far over the top, the sign maker is gonna lose their shirt on it...or quite possibly their sanity.
I'm not too sure what I would have done had this person called here, but I'm pretty sure that I'd remind them... "You get what you pay for."
Courteously, of course.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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THE PERSON DOING THIS SEARCH IS TRYING TO FIND RHYTHMS AND COLORS AND PROPORTIONS AND SHAPES THAT FEEL THE WAY SHE WANTS HER SIGN TO WORK>SORRY BOUT THE UPPER CASE< MY KEYBOARD JUST WENT BELLY UP I THINK>Ifsomeone came to me and equipped me with all that info to understand what she likes, it would ba of great help in getting my design on target.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Kissy, what's a "hugh ball"?? heh............ I once knew a guy named Hugh Jass
Let it go. If you want to sit and rest on your "laurels" you'll be running in circles trying to protect your little "design world".
Our philosophy: Design it, illustrate it, execute it, log it and forGET IT! Move on to bigger and better things. Don't allow your ego to dwell on your imagined past triumphs. Someone's going to copy/emulate you? Booh-friggety-hoo. Move ahead! New creations! New directions! Our portfolio is our past, not our future.
I thank you............. Leslie thanks you.
heh..............
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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The only thing anyone can lift is on the very first page......after that .........they get a message "Property of CJ Allan" 
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To call and ask for pictures of your work so her sister can design her a sign...knowing me the way I do, if she had called and asked me that, I would have either laughed at her or asked her in a very sarcastic tone if she's like me to give her sister a pirated copy of the sign software I use too. Maybe her sister can come over & I'll drop everything so I can teach her the business.
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