posted
Donna, I know the frustration involved in "failures" thats why Rapid products were created. All the concern with "vinyl waranty" exactly what has been your past experience with manufacturers when a failure happens, do they write you a check for all the time,travel,associated materials lost?
How much is still a loss on those jobs, when all is said and done?
This question is for anyone who has dealt with the situation described.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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The only vinyl failure I've ever had in my entire biz career is once, and that was using Arlon reflective on top of Avery 2mil. The companies simply blamed each other and I quit using Arlon on the spot and went all to Avery. I asked for no freebies, just reasons etc.
Avery A7 is the 2nd failure I've had now. I'm not out to make a mountain out of a molehill, just wanted some answers on how to make the old adhesive work (thank-you Pierre) since I have to wait for the new product to come out. Just wanted to warn others I was having a problem so they could avoid the same situation.
All my questions were answered. I'm not going after anything else. I just want stuff that works.
posted
The previous owner of my shop had a wide racing stripe on a kids truck from the front bumper to the rear. A year later, him and his dad come back and show me that the vinyl is all faded out from oxidation. I know the previous owner used Avery excusively so I called Avery. I didn't get anywhere so I called a friend that is the Avery color specialists and he basically told me that the warranty was only there to look good - that Avery wasn't going to do anything about it.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Donna (and everyone else), I'm simply trying to figure out weather there is really any benefit to this "vinyl waranty thing".
If everyone is so afraid of voiding a "vinyl waranty",because of wet application, well lets hear all about what that waranty is,and what value it has to the sign person that has to re-do, maybe the waranty isn't worth the concern.
And maybe (as you stated Donna) it is better to put the film on with Rapid Tac to make sure it stays there (just my bit of male logic).
Perhaps it would cost less in the long run (kinda like insurence, that saves)t wet apply rather then have a dry failure and no coverage for the costs involved?
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I have dealt with 3M on warranty issues, dealing with a job using retro-reflective and transaparent inks, for 3M to cover anything, it must be 3M system for everything, we deal with a graphics rep, a traffic rep, and architetural, so we are connected a little better than the average sign shop. Once it was verified, 3M covered it. The only other time I ever dealt with it was before install, with messed-up rolls of vinyl. Arlon and 3M replaced them with no problems, but would theyy have covered it after install?
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Of course there is, Roger. I spent nearly a year at Arlon IN the plant itself. I learned the coating line and the test procedures in the lab. Cast film formulations aren't a simple thing. Ending up with a premium film that passes US Gov't Primary Lab Stage Approval is not an easy thing to accomplish. You have a good product. It sells well. Be happy with that. There is no need to belittle these people and their warrantees. You last post leaves me amazed at your self zeal and disappointed in your logic. This kind of oversalesmanship is really not necessary.
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm asking questions Pierre, some have answered.
Making no statements toward warantees, just want to hear if they are a benifit or not.
Bout the only time I reply to this board is if someone posts a question or problem regarding applications, removals, cleaning, if you truly beleive I am of no help to anyone here then maybe your right, I should just pack up my keyboard and find another place to be.
What do you say Pierre, would that make ya happy?
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Oh give me a break, Roger. Of course not. Why do you overreact? There's no doubt that your product is a good one. No doubt that it fills a need. You can do all of that without the subtle slamming of these film mfgs. Chill, bro..........
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Ok, bud. I've said too much already. The field is yours. Sell away............
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You chill BRO.... I beleive the industry standard in regard to these warantees is to "replace the material only". Trying to get a better read on that.
If thats the case then, those who know that a wet application would insure good bond and longivity (where otherwise they may not be getting it) the warantee at that point is worth the value of uncut film, right, or do you not wish to answer the question?
I am getting answers from here and other boards Pierre, so it would seem that YOU are the only one upset by this?
O.J.S.S.O.B.
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Roger, Do Rapid products carry any sort of warranty? If, by some chance, there were a failure when using one of your products correctly, what does Rapid Tac offer to help offset the cost of the job? I am genuinely curious.
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Joe, I appreciate your question, we have always had a writen warantee for "defective product to be replaced" I guess thats what vinyl manufacturers have had as well?
However, I will ad the following; Rapid Tac will replace any of our product found defective, and pay that portion of labor to remove and reapply new film, if failure is caused by our product and not improper procedures.
Hows that, I don't beleive we have ever heard of someone having a failure because of the use of any of our products, so I'feeling very safe in that statement !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Although I have always wondered just exactly how you would be able to tell (prove) if a job was failing due to the preparation, the application fluid, the vinyl, or the installer. The effect would be basically the same from any of the causes, wouldn't it? A vinyl manufacturer points to you, you point to me, and I am left to shake my fist at those pesky Sign Gods for testing my strength once more.
Shelf life of materials, types of paper towels used, temperatures, humidity, pollen count, high tides, and the price of tea in China, all play a little factor in the job, and therefore take some of the heat when the job goes south. So it would seem to be very difficult to find the point at which the failure occurred.
Generally when a failure happens, I find myself spending less time wondering "why did this vinyl application fail?" and more time wondering "why do the problems always happen on the job that you hated doing the first time?!"
[ December 06, 2003, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Joe Endicott ]
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Roger here's one you'll like...just this week had a lets just say slightly well known companies rep come in for his once a year visit in order to justify his pocketing the $$$ he charges off as lunch to us the other 15times a year he says he stops by.... so i asked him about ordering me some of "roadguard" clear vinyl..not tedlar...for a customer. He says hey i have a sample roll in the car....he has a 4" strip of 3mil(comes in 2,3,4,5,6 and one larger mil thickness).........i asked if it has a really strong adhesive like reflective or the tedlar product...nah same one as other vinyl products but i have to show you to apply it.???? why does it dance? no but if you dont use the correct mixture of alcohol and water when you apply it you won't get uniform activation of the adhesive....is that for all films? no just this special one...but they all have the same adhesive? Well yah kinda...so why not use the mixture on other films? Oh we can't warranty that
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Good one Gavin, several of my distributors have reported manuf. reps and trouble shooters carrying my juise to a problem site, but always tell the end user"you didn't get this from me"!
Joe, very good question, the few things that cause an application to go south are;
1- poor cleaning methods (type of cleaning product, type of wiper).
2- contaminated application fluid (yes some have added they're own spin on what should be in my bottle).
3- wrong combination of film/tape/substrate/juice.
4- and God forbid, film with poor adhesive quality (fairly rare).
I have been able to pin these down in most cases, very few get by us.
Used to work for State Farm years ago, they taught me to "give the benefit of the doubt to the customer". Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Roger, I had a multilayer job that literally started to peel off a guys tool trailer and fall off. I went to inspect it...found that the adhesive side of the "base" white vinyl wasn't hardly sticky.
I called Ameriban, the dealer/distributor I purchased the white from...it was Permacast...customer service told me they had several "bad" batches of white and black during the time I purchased mine. The adhesive was no good. They reimbursed me for the vinyl AND the cost of the labor to tear off the remaining vinyl AND reapply the new....AND added a little extra credit to my account for good will.
Now that's how their warranty went...I believe it goes back, in large part, to the distributor and their integrity to help out their customer. I think that unless you are a cheat and obviously trying to rip off the distributor for free merchandise, that warranty issues will be taken care of by most reputable distributors.
I think Joe makes some very valid points Roger...specificity would be helpful...even to your last post...such as:
1.) Poor cleaning methods - what do you mean by type of cleaning products? Does it HAVE to be cleaned with a RT product first to qualify for a warranty? If not, what other type of cleaner is acceptable in your eyes as a warranty sustaining product? And wiper....what do you mean by this and what is backed by your warranty. You're being very vague and don't really say....
2.) This one is understandable and pretty straight forward.
3.)wrong combination of juice/film/ tape/ substrate? Can you provide specific examples of what combination of these is covered and what aren't? I'm sure you must have a handy list to ensure your product is used to it's most successful conclusion. The combinations of products possible with these categories can be huge....almost like trying to figure out the correct 4 digit combination of a safe lock. Without specifics, this gives a lot of leeway for disclaimers doesn't it?
4.) This one seems pretty straight forward as well.
I'm glad you brought up this post Roger...because it gives you the opportunity to educate users as to the exact methods and combinations of product to produce applications that are more successful and maintain your warranty.
Here's your chance to further clarify your warranty....thanks for the info..it's really helpful.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Roger- I would like to say that we buy your RT by the case- as well as doing just as many apps dry. Certainly a place for both. My last career was owning a bodyshop- and my experience was that State Farm *never* gives any- one the benefit of the doubt (or anything else) Gene
posted
Yes, very good questions Todd, I should explain in detail;
1- all Rapid Tac "wet applications" should ONLY be pre cleaned (substrate) with Rapid Tac, Rapid Tac II or prior with Rapid Prep, and then Rapid Tac or Tac II, this insures the RESIDUE is Rapid Tac application fluid only (compatible residues).
2- The wiper should be a "cheap paper towel" (they don't have chemical enhancements) lots of paper towels have been chemically treated to be "lint free/ static free/ super absorbant", You won't have to worry about lint, both the application fluids are "static free agents". So, buy cheap towels from local grocery stores for 0 chemical content.
3- don' use a "calandered film" with "high tac tape" on a cold day with regular Rapid Tac ! This would be the "worst case senerio"
regular Rapid Tac was designed for "premium cast film" Rapid Tac II is designed for all other films, and especially cold weather or glass applications.
We will put all of this up on our site this month under "warranty conditions".
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Thanks Roger...that is very helpful. So, basically, the warranty would imply that you must use the complete Rapid System to be valid as I read your post...
Just curious, I have had this question before....I'm a little hesitant to use any paper towel to rub on an automotive finish. Paper towel, by it's very nature is a wood derivitive product. I can't help but think paper towel will scratch automotive paint finishes. Wouldn't some kind of a lint-free rag, towel be a better, less abrasive choice?
What's your take on this? I can just f-e-e-e-l the paper towel scratching away at the painted surface.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I have had the cheap paper towels scratch some painted surfaces, like Raven black Alumalite, and a truck. I too would like to know what can safely be used with Rapid Products for such surfaces.
The paper towel I use is called So-Dri, plain white and I get it on sale at 3 rolls for a buck. When it gets that cheap I usually buy 3 cases.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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The paper towels are great, but do scratch automotive surfaces and especially enamel paints. On occasion, customers will repaint a vehicle with a lesser quality paint or the lack of hardener in the paint cause the scratches to be very pronounced.
I usually get the auto supplier's "Box of Rags" which are a softer material and tend not to harm the paint finish. My question is...are there any chemicals use in these rags that would be harmful or void the RapidTac warranties? (Like the blue dye they use to color them with.)
Thanks. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have never noticed true scratching on paint from paper towels, but i'm sure they do happen, they are probably not deep or serious, a bit of polish after your done perhaps? If the paint is that soft or sencitive, how could you help but cause swirl scratches using any kind of cleaner and wiper?
We have found a number of chemicals in SOME paper towels, includeing silicone.
Ray, "new cloth towels" can be ok, but once they have been cleaned or washed you will have chemical content.
Boy, you guys must do a lotta "show cars" or something, I'v been using "cheap paper towels" for years and had no complaints.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I did a job four years ago using two colors of vinyl, one was Denver Sign Supplies house brand called DenverCast. That color is peeling and curling I called them to inquire about warranty and all they will do is replace the vinyl on that particular sign with the same brand, same color, no labor to remove and replace it.
-------------------- Mark Perkins Performance Signs & Graphics Eunice, Louisiana "The heart of Cajun Country" Posts: 506 | From: Eunice Louisiana 70535 | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just to let you know my experience with warranties...I've had one job that had to be redone because of vinyl failure. It was a roll of 3" striping tape from Universal products/avery. I did a whole semi including the tank on the back, using a combination of 3 different colors. A very labour intensive, time consuming job (for me anyway!) One color had a problem along the edge where the adhesive would not stick. I sent a sample of the faulty vinyl and they concluded it was the vinyl adhesive.
I had to remove the old vinyl,clean the truck and replace the whole graphics again, and UP replaced the orininal role of striping for free!!!!! So much for warranties! I was out the time for the original job, time to remove the mess, time to re-install and had to replace some of the other colors at my expense.
The warranties are a joke, but do help to upsale the benefits of 2ml vinyl to those wanting something for nothing.
You just have to keep your fingers crossed and hope that you don't ever need the warranty.
My 2 cents, Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn, thank you for the input, I'm sorry about the outcome of it all, I know your not alone. Thankfully these insidents are usually quite rare!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
My "take" on vinyl warrantees: I use ONLY the best grade of vinyl and I guarantee it forever! I know that sounds nuts, but I've NEVER had a come-back! I'm sure that a few vinyl jobs have gotten screwed up for one reason or another, but for whatever reason (probably embarrassment to ask for replacement after 'so much time')there have been NO complaints! If there were, I'd do the job over. The cost of the vinyl is insignificant for the most part, and the time it takes to do a job over has been more than compensated for, in the original price. The customer just wants results! He doesnt care how or why! So my forever guarantee brings em in and keeps em happy, and NO re-dos! As far as RAPID products, I've had excellent results when I've used them appropriately.
posted
Roger, the paper towels DO scratch the surface. It's really noticible on a black vehicle. They will easily scratch up Imron. Since I mainly work with paint, I find this desirable to enhance adhesion. I had a truck dealer gripe about it one time but he backed off when I showed him how easily it was taken care of with a wipe of Super Glaze.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I just had an issue with a Gerber vinyl. It was very brittle when I installed it. Terrible install. I called my distributor, Advantage Sign Supply, and it was handled right now. I have nothing bad to say about Gerber or Avery.
However, cheap towels do scratch the car if it is not washed first with soap and water. I encourage my clients to bring it to me clean, then I prep it for install.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Roger will probably hate me for this but if he didn't, it would be for something else.
I use Rapid Prep as a stand alone prep solvent for the vehicles I do. I also use Blue Detail cotton towels like the ones in your bathroom. I clean them in the washing machine using only Oxi-Clean and then into the dryer. The towels I use are strictly for preping and nothing else. I turn them over, fold them and do around 10 vehicles with one towel, then put them in a laundry bag and grab another one.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
My preference is to also use soft clothes/rags. Roger, what about creating a laundry soap that doesn't leave residue or contaminates on washed and rinsed rags?
posted
OK, heres the deal, I like to get a bond in 1 minute using the wet method, period.
To insure a 1 minute bond I need confidence that everything that can be done, is.
If you can get the results that you want by using cloth towels or chemically treated paper towels, well I guess thats fine!
I want people to use my products and acheive exactally what I say they will, thats it in a nut shell. I'm sure someone could brush paint a finish to the quality of my spray gun finish, thats the way it goes, but for the "average user" I want all conditions to be as optimum as possible.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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There's definitely advantages to dealing with a good or preferred vendor. They're the ones that get most of my business. Knock on wood, I've had very few vinyl failures. Most were caused by power washers and a few were just bad material. I've always made good on the repairs for the client, sometimes having to remind them about the dangers of high pressure washes. My preferred vendors were the ones that made good on bad materials. If I had a problem, I called them. They were the ones that compensated me for my losses and they went after the manufacturer. The one time I had a failure with vinyl from a different distributor, I had to deal with the manufacturer directly. That went absolutely nowhere. Not even a replacement roll of vinyl. They wanted a whole lot of information that I could not supply. Things like what was the lot number of the vinyl, exactly when was it installed & under what conditions, etc. Needless to say, I don't use that brand of vinyl any more. I will add that I use a lot of the Rapid products and they do a great job. However, I very rarely apply vinyl graphics wet.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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