posted
I have did some small work for this customer and it is clear that she does not have alot of $$ and what she does have, she is indecisive on how and where to spend it. She is changing the name of her business and wants me to redo her storefront can sign. I did her a layout 3 weeks ago and sahe loved it. Yesterday, she called to ask what the font was and mentioned she wanted to put the lettering (embroidered) on a few aprons....she owns a scrapbooking business. I immediately went into how she is drifting into a logo package area. If she wants some formats for other avenues of advertising that she will have to pay me for the copyright privelages. Being new at this (both of us) I told her I would print some info describing 3 different packages (from the info I got from you great people here a while back). 1. I retain the copyright and do everything for her. 2. I retain the copyright and grant certain advertisers a 1 time use of my copyrighted layout. 3. She buys the full blown package from me and she goes where she wants.
I velieve she is prepared to get the can sign done but, something tells me thatr she is not prepared to spend another $100-$300 for the copyright.
Basically, I just want your advice on how to convince her to make the purchase without losing her respect and her business. (I feel kind of like an auto mechanic doing an oil change only to tell the customer that he needs a new transmission when he returns for his car) Christmas is coming and she is probably wanting to hold that money that she does have for gifts and such. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
posted
I generally charge for a design. On acceptance and full payment they then own it, copywrite and all. They have after all paid for it.
They can have me do the sign, have someone else do the work or even reproduce it any way they wish.
Any other way would be too hard to enforce and would as you say seem to be nickle and diming them.
If I do a quick sketch or don't charge them for the design in full, I have clearly indicated to them that I don't value my design time and they shouldn't worry about it either.
In any case it always becomes a difficult situation when the rules seem to change as we play the game. Even though I may be really clear in my head what I want and need, I've found most folks have a lot of trouble reading my mind. The ground rules have to be laid out before the game.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
A local freelance graphic designer friend of mine charges $250 for a logo package. This includes the logo design, business card design and letterhead design in a few different file formats burned on a CD. If an unaltered font is used, he requires the customer purchase the font liscense as well. The customers owns the logo & copywrite. This is considered affordable in my location.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You should get paid for your time, did you get paid for your layout? It seems as though you have drifted into the logo part, not your customer, not charging de-values your efforts. Did your sketch have a notice that you own the rights to the drawing? What is to stop her from finding anothr shop to do it? If it were me, with a client that small, I would try to get a few bucks for your effort and hand over the files unconditionally. By the way 250 bucks is way too cheap for logo, card and letterhead, even if the market is saturated.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
first and foremost, if you didnt charge or claim copyright on the layout when it was FIRST established, you'll be seen as changing the rules of the game as Dan states, and will probably alienate the customer - then she'll run off and have it done anyway and you really won't have any realistic recourse, moral or legal... nor will it even be worth the time to persue it.
What you *can* do is hunt down an embroiderer for her or work with her embroiderer, you supply them with one-time use of the artwork keeping it out of the customer's hands, and make it clear you own the copyright and intend to protect it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
One way to gain or keep a customer's respect is to POLITELY DECLINE or refrain from volunteering to do a layout or logo without payment up front. If every sign shop owner would learn to do this, we would all have less problems.
If they balk....let 'em walk.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
They always say they have no money for the Exterior Designs!! But I bet you the floor are hardwood or the walls are painted to their colour specks!
So tell them of the value of calling cards! Signs and Business Cards.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Rick Chavez: ,,,,,....... By the way 250 bucks is way too cheap for logo, card and letterhead, even if the market is saturated.
Rick
In the Baton Rouge, LA small business market; $250 is very competitve for a logo package, but not cheap.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I don't see how a designer can justify that, but whatever, for 250.00 bucks you have to have meeting-concept-redo-production file ready to print in 3 1/2 hours if you bill at 75.00 bucks an hour? Interesting....
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Wayne wrote: "One way to gain or keep a customer's respect is to POLITELY DECLINE or refrain from volunteering to do a layout or logo without payment up front. If every sign shop owner would learn to do this, we would all have less problems."
There are only 3 sign shops here in Airdrie(not to bring the neighboring Calgary into the picture). My 2 competitors which have been here for the last 10 years to my 1 year have always given a "visual" to help sell their design. I truely would like to get a deposit up front and convince the prospective customer to trust in me my design capabilities but I am finding out as my competitors have, that many people have no artistic knowledge nor can they comprehend what design concept you may be telling them. If I give them a "visual" that took me a whopping 15 minutes to punch up, then it will help me sell the product. I don't do this all the time and lose more jobs when I don't include one. Perhaps I can change the way Airdrie operates in a couple of years when people know that I am one of 3 shop here and "word of mouth" instills the trust in them to give me $ up front. Until then, my layouts ROCK and the customer gets all excited at the layout og their future sign, they go home or talk to their friends and brag a bit about how cool their vehicle graphic will look or such (that's word of mouth). I continue to grow and within a couple of years, I should feel like a "STAPLE" in the community.
posted
Hi Corey, We're drifting into two issues here.
first, I charge $250 to $500 to create a "logo" for a small business. (Rick, yes, I've also charged as much as $20,000 for a logo for a mid-size company with 200 employees). A scrap-book shop doesn't need an expensive logo. Also, just picking a couple of fonts isn't the same as designing a logo. that's just production/layout work.
second, you sell your customer on the other work you've done. if they like the kind of work you do, they have confidence that you can do that kind of work for them. if they believe you can help them, then they should be willing to part with a deposit so you can come up with the design. that's how I sell my work, at least. if they don't trust me enough to give me a deposit, then there isn't enough trust between us to begin work. maybe i need to show them more samples, or maybe i'm not the right designer for what they want.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
To add some light to the previous reply of Rick Chavez's comment that he feels that "$250 is cheap for a designer to charge for a logo..."
I think he is right on the first point of cost, but I doubt that the person doing this job is really a designer. I know of several people 'designing graphics and logos' that do it just for fun. To be a professional at something means one needs to earn a decent living from their talent.
The computer has made everyone a 'graphic designer'. How many times do we get some logo that is technically unusable, much less impossible to read at a distance.
Curt Stenz
-------------------- Curt Stenz Graphics 700 Squirrel Lane Marathon, WI 54448 Posts: 591 | From: Marathon, WI 54448 | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Scooter, I agree, it is probably a layout, now turned logo.
Here is my thoughts, not because I work at a design firm, but because I think what we do has value......
Say a scrapbook shop open, there is a start up cost, they expect to spend a certain amount, they expect to make a certain amount. A scrapbook shop, that does not think about "image" is already in trouble, "Image" in retail is very valuable, and I know all of you agree, so put some numbers on it. Say they gross 40k in the first year, start up estimate is 20-30k, already were talking 60-70k, take a pecentage for "Branding" late say a measley 2 1/2%, Thats 1500.00-1750.00, a one time expense, a very important aspect of any retail business, for only 2 1/2% of start up and expected gross! Even if you go 1 1/2% that is 900-1150.00 bucks!! Alot of money! Not really, when you consider the expected revenue they will make on it for years to come, if they suceed. These should be expected expedetures, you didn't go into business with taking that into consideration, niether should they, we are in the business of enhancing image, we should get paid adequetly for it.
I believe Curt is right, a real designer knows the cost of a decent logo, with banging out design at 250 bucks a pop, you may not be getting the best solution.
By the way, a retail spot needs a good logo, probabaly more than anyone. Any retail shop skimping on design and thier identity is already in trouble, you as a professional are hired to enhance it, when you get to a certain point, charge for it.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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