posted
I am wondering how copyright laws work when a new customer contacts me and wants to have a new truck lettered, but wants to use a design that he has had for years. I always try to change the work, make it my own, and usually the customer will go for it, but there are those times that they just want what they already had, alot of times because of dissatisfaction with other company's service and or turnaround. If they have been using this design, on everthing (t-shirts, letterhead, signs, vehicles) and they have paid to have this designed, at what point does ownership become theirs? I defenitely don't want to steal anyones work but does it make sense to refuse a customer, and is that really stealing it if I am the one being solicited? (mostly word of mouth, yellow pages ect) Please no reprimands, just wisdom, I am about as ethical as anyone can be!
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
We've all heard enough of "get a sketch fee" or to put a disclaimer that the design belongs to your shop before you let it out the door.
What about the customer who comes into your shop with a piece of paper with a design on it? Maybe he paid for the design, maybe he didn't. There is no "property of joe schmoe's signworld" on it, no disclaimer, no nothing. It would be smart to inquire where the design came from, but are we still to contact the other shop and make sure this customer isn't stealing a design from them? If he says he paid for the design and now owns it, is it up to me to doublecheck?
On one hand, I think it would be covering our own butts to question the customer & call the other shop but on the other hand, I also feel like I'd be doing the other shop's job for them. Nothing leaves my shop without my disclaimer on it. If the other shop isn't willing to recognize the value of their design time or take steps to protect themselves, why should I try to protect them?
Part of my estimate sheet, that must be signed by client before work begins says that "If artwork is provided by customer, customer hereby grants sign shop permission to use artwork for this customer and warrants that customer has legal right and ownership of artwork." If the customer signs off on this and there is a problem later on, wouldn't this cover my butt?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's a good one, but I'm talking about existing vehicle lettering, say the customer brings in a photo of his existiong truck, or even yet he comes in with the old truck and says do my new one justlike this. Hasn't he technically paid for it at that point? I know I charge for the layout when I do a job for the first time, and my assumption has always been at that point ownership becomes theirs. I would be sad if they went somewhere else, but the reason would have to be that I'm not fulfilling thier needs or they wouldn't have gone somewhere else.
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
I to would like to think that I am an honourable person with fairly clear morals on most things.
I truthfully beleive that any design work I have created for a customer becomes theirs at the point of payment
For instance, I created a logo just resently for a business network For comittee approval I was required to submit my designs, all had my copyrite and ownership details clearly marked... standard stuff
Once they settled on which design they felt best suited their needs I was informed
a little later I was asked to e-mail this logo to the network's accountant for their invoices, and to a couple of members of the group... of course I did it, happily, you see by that time they had already paid for the logo... it belonged to them
why should it be any different because it's on a peice of paper or card, or on a vehicle
what would the right thing to do be if the vehicle had been in a smash and needed a door lettered to match the rest of the signwriting on the uncrupled part?
In the world of fine art we can own somthing we've created in perpituity, but this is commercial design work which is contracted on and paid for.
when a UPS truck needs lettering would anyone ask to see proof that the company owns the artwork? no of course we wouldn't, because we beleive that the original design was bought and paid for.
why should it be any differnet when the local baker buys another van and needs it written to match his 4 othes?
sign companies come and go, peopl have personal conflicts with other folk all the time, I don't beleive it's my job to take care of anyones elses business for them... especially un-asked
that's my 2 cents worth anyway
cheers gail
-------------------- Gail & Dave Hervey Bay Qld Australia
gail@roadwarriorproducts.com.au
sumtimes ya just gota! Posts: 794 | From: 552 O'Regans Creek Rd Toogoom Qld 4655 Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stacey, I understand your question and was just adding my questions about the same topic to your thread. I hope that's ok. Just the other day, I got into a discussion with a friend about the questions I raised and figured by adding them here, we could get this into a good serious discussion.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the 2 cents, that's basically how I feel, and I'm just trying to morally cover my butt so to speak! I've just been mulling this over recently because I had to sign over rights to a design I created for a local city, their lawyer advised them to have it copywrited and in the process of doing so the lawyer explained to me that unless it is a written transferr of ownership, the logo technically belongs to the designer. Another incident I ran into right before that was a customer I've been doing trucks for for a while wasn't using her logo on cards and shirts, I asked her why not and she told me a story about a beautiful sign she had had designed years before. The lady who designed it told her it was HER property (the sign lady) and that the business owner could not reproduce it elswhere, but only with her. I shrugged it off, telling her that's crazy, you paid for the design, it's yours... But after talking to the copywrite lawyer, I'm obsessing about my newfound knowledge/questions! It's so confusing, I guess it comes down to trying to be as ethical as possible (within reason)!
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry Chris, I'm a response behind you! Yah thats why I come here, to get honest opinions, (the good, bad and the ugly!) These are fuzzy lines that help to be defined. I like your response on the other thing though, get the customer to sign off on the ownership, the cover your butt clause!
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I feel that the vehicle owner has the right to use anyone to duplicate another of his trucks with the design done by another for whatever reason. Taking up his time till you find out if this design is copyrighted is wasting time. Just because I do pinstriping, it doesn't mean that I can't duplicate another stripers work if this vehicle was in an accident or if the owner gets a newer vehicle and wants the same designs as the old. If its in my power to duplicate and I'm alright with the designs, I do it, thats what I'm paid for.
I'd find alot of wasted time looking for the original designer with 75% of my work at body shops and referrals.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I'll add another slight tangent here: I had to do a fair bit of work for a local bank which had a particularly tedious logo to have digitised. I knew two other Toowoomba signwriters who'd done work for the same bank before, and the first one I asked was quite happy to give me his cleaned-up and easily cuttable ai files for the bank's logo. We help each other out where we can like this, and pass jobs on where appropriate, so a bit of quid-pro-quo helps. Of course the assumption is that the bank owns the logo.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7016 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is an interesting situation and a moral dilema to say the least. I have interpreted the law to be that copyright is transferred only when both parties have some sort of written contract stating such. With the DMCA, the rules have changed a lot and it seems that they're being tested and refined daily. So, either talk to a lawyer that specializes in this work or start reading. In my opinion, Kissy has the right idea. Have your new client sign a document stating that he owns the design and he will be responsible for any legal action brought against you when it comes to reproducing the design. Most copy shops or quick print centers have some sort of release form that you can use for reference. Now for my ramblings... I'm no legal expert, but, in this situation, where the person who may own the design can't fulfill the clients needs in a timely manner, the client can resort to other means to have the job completed or sue the owner of the copyright. Quite a few years ago, I recall reading an article where a large retailer and a sign company went to court over a missed deadline on an installation of the retailers main identity sign. The retailer sued the sign company over lost revenue because of the lack of proper identity. The case was settled out of court. Before computers, copyrights basically belonged to whoever owned the pounce patterns. Today, it's obviously a lot easier to reproduce an image. A few mouse clicks and you have usable art. When you hear about UPS paying 20 million dollars for a new logo, it's because their image or logo is probably rights managed and/or owned by their ad agency. It's up to the agency to make sure their clients image is being used in the manner it was intended. That's where I feel most sign makers sell themselves short. It's a tough sell, but it's in your client's best interests. A logo is used for a lot more than signs. We as designers need to make sure that our designs are used in the best way possible to fit the environment and maintain our clients image. Do you think IBM or McDonalds went to the local sign shop and said "here's my card, Make my sign look like that"? I don't think so
Havin fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I do a design for someone, final art is theirs in .ai vector format burned onto a cd because that is part of what I charged them for.
Granted, depending on the customer, I have also charged more, included a terms of usage .pdf with image included and explain that they will pay more because they are getting an 'identity' piece and keep a copy of the disk for my files.
I really don't want to drive around town with a notepad looking for peeps that infringe on my desin, so I simplay charge what it is worth to me and sign it over.... so to speak.
But then, my market is more limited than many here...
The problem comes in with smaller establishments. Larger ones, such as banks, department stores, etc all own rights to their identity, to freely reproduce them within their own official guidelines.
-------------------- --If you don't care where you are, you ain't lost.
Tony Potter Blind Mice and Company 3001 Bever Ave. SE Cedar Rapids, IA 52403 (319) 573-9001 www.blindmiceandcompany.com tonypotter@yahoo.com Posts: 209 | From: Cedar Rapids, IA | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really think replicating a customers lettering design that they have had for ages is something that does't require an in depth investigation.
At any rate - you would not be infringing copyright if you merely did the work - its the publisher and not the printer of a plagarised or copied work that is infringing. It is not the printers responsibility to check the finances or contractual obligations between a publisher and the author of the work. Same with a builder , he is not expected to check that the plans/designs he works from have been paid for and he can't be held liable for disputes between an architect and the client. Whether you wish to work with a client you KNOW has been less than honest, unethical or underhand is another story, but you cannot assume that a design with someone elses copyright on it was automatically "stolen" and questioning the client on this is a very delicate affair. Should someone give ME the 3rd degree on a design I wanted manufactured - thus assuming my "guilt" or making me prove my "innocence" - I would tell them to shove it!!!
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
if they got the designs and logo on their truck(S) he has more then one...and he has probably been thur more sign people since the design was made..now it is HIS LOGO!! do the job, get the money.....next time he needs a truck to be done..he MIGHT COME BACK TO YOU!!! i have many of these.. i got one now ******* TREE SERVICE. i have been doing his work since i had the storefront...HE CAME TO ME!!!! his door logos was what he wanted me to do...he even brought me and old set of vinyls!!! i didnt ask who did them or why he came to me, i just did the work at a price that i thought was fair. this was 4 years ago, since then i have owed him $1000 for some tree work he did. now he owes me $900 worth of tree work......plus all of the other money i have made from other work. he has 4 sales trucks, 3 brand new gmc p/u's. i do his boat, and personal truck..so its been a good move for me to copy a logo that he used. i also have 3 other TREE SERVICES....one i copied there logo and the other 2 i build theres....
[ October 21, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Many truck lettering jobs are just that...lettering. In most cases, the designs are not "original" and pretty straight forward. If the design includes clip art that has not been altered very much, the same rules apply.
Should the customer need you to copy an original cartoon or illustration around the lettering, or if they they had an original design done as a logo, asking who did the design usually settles a lot of difficulties.
Pike Industries, a company near you, is a good example. They have had a logo for years on their vehicles, and many of them, as the company has grown. The design is simple and very easily reproduced. Were you doing the job for them, copyright might not be the concern as much as "trademark" would.
Some companies register their logos as a "trademark" once they purchase the rights from the designer. Once they own the trademark, they are free to do with it what they want.
My FedEx guy recently told me that he has some say, not in the design, but who gets hired to do the vans and trucks. I guess they can hire whoever they want at the local level as long as the design stays consistant to the FedEx logo.
Just a few thoughts... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi all, I'm new here and learning a lot!! Just wanted to add what I do, it may not be "right" but it seems to be working. Unfortunately, I can't charge for every design, most of my clients, wouldn't pay x amount of dollars for design, then x amount of dollars for their sign. So I have a stamp, that I use on their invoice that says "this design is the property of my biz, not to be duplicated in whole or in part". If they wish to "buy" design they can for X amount of dollars. Then I explain to them the jerk I did a design for, he wanted just business cards for now, didn't charge for design, next I know, a huge box truck goes by...then 2 pick-up trucks! (so as you can tell I was quite upset) I want to keep that customer, so I consider it "my" design. I do alot of other things besides signs, such as business cards, shirts etc., and I want that repeat business, not the signshop down the street, charging alot less, because they don't have to brainstorm a great design. I have a degree in Graphic Arts, some designs are good, others not so good, but I consider it mine, until they want to pay X amount of dollars, then they do as they want. Im not the sign police, but I do recognize "my" work. Not once, since doing my stamp, has a customer went to someone else. In fact, I think I've had many repeat customers, because of this stamp. So, the customer knows whether or not they paid for it, because I specifically say I don't charge you for the design, but you must sign this . They are happy, they feel they got a cool design,for nothing,and I have another repeat customer, and everyone is happy. Someday, it might bite me in the A$$, but it seems to be working. btw, i added this to another subject..oops
-------------------- Becky Olson The Sign Says 342 Kelley St. Manchester, NH 03102 603-622-6722 thesignsays@aol.com Posts: 6 | From: Manchester, NH | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK, I am passionate about this. I design, they pay, they own, PERIOD. If you produce a worthy logo, you need to charge for your talent. When my client leaves, they have a burned disc with their logo in three formats. Yes I want repeat business, but I will EARN it, not secure it with some lame copywrite agreement.
One of my competitors stood at my counter and tried to convince me how dumb I was for not making my client sign an agreement. This would be equal to price fixing as far as I am concerned. Many of my clients came to me because of this hokey agreement, many even pony up for a new logo so they can be freed from such agreements.
I do, however, like what Kissy suggested to cover any legalities from those less enlightened.
[ October 21, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I so agree with that. It's hard to see your babies go out the door, but if you got paid in the first place, it shouldn't sting quite so bad. The idea of retaining ownership is a thought, but lets face it, based on all conversations surrounding these topics, people don't usually understand that. So I'm going to keep on making them, if they are already in vinyl/paint I am going to assume the signmaker was smart enough to charge for his/her initial design, and If it's on paper - no thanks! Please give me some proof of ownership! I rarely run into people "stealing" artwork, I have been asked to quote other peoples stuff, I just redo the artwork and quote my own anyways. As far as another post from yesterday about the somewhat same topic, if you have a problem with a customers supplied artwork, and you are so moral, tell them up front you won't do it, because as someone said earlier in this string, just ignoring it could open you up to a breech of contract suit which would be just as damaging as a copywrite suit (I would think?!)
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
so, A customer comes in, all he wants is magnetics. Im supposed to charge for the magnetics and a design fee, so he can do what he wants with the design??? the majority of my biz is start-ups and then repeat customers. The start-ups don't have much money, so to accomadate them, by designing their image, so they can be successful(not helevetica on a arc either)then in turn, come back to me. What is wrong with that??? I make them aware that the design is not theirs, they know it, they sign for it. If they want it, for a different signperson, they need to purchase it. but, at the same time, I don't always ask a customer if they have purchased their designs(well, sometimes i do). I have many conversations with this issue, with the girl in another town. She doesn't charge either, then they run down the street, and another sign companie reproduces her work. I believe this "stamp" is a good idea, and puts the customer on notice. It may not hold up in court, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet! Do you realize advertising agencies charge any where from a hundred bucks to thousands of dollars for a companies image?? Why shouldn't I get a piece of that, in the form of signs, shirts business cards etc. I'm helping this business to succed, and in turn they may get more vans, trucks etc. It's a win-win for everyone.
-------------------- Becky Olson The Sign Says 342 Kelley St. Manchester, NH 03102 603-622-6722 thesignsays@aol.com Posts: 6 | From: Manchester, NH | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Exactly. So, you charge for the work up front. Your way can work too, but much more likely to be plagurized. If your client is comfortable with that, cool! My biggest beef is when a sign company copywrites and gives no option of purchase to the client. Kind of like a blank check, and no competition. It locks them into all their products at any price dictated by the sign shop. WRONG!!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why do you have to tie them in with what is essentially a worthless piece of paper - to defend an action like that in court would be horrendously expensive. Retaining the rights to their logo/image is really shady business - you are essentially blackmailing them. You are saying if they go elsewhere to have stuff done , no matter why , they cant use the design you did for them which is *their* image? I would NEVER deal with a company like that.
Why can't you retain their patronage with normal business practice , like efficient service , good quality and fair prices. Those customers who are fickle for a few cents are most likely not missed.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
All very good points, the bottom line being that if someone comes to me and says I was happy with my other sign company, but he never calls me back, I want my lettering just how it is...In my mind, they (other sign company) have not followed up their end of the deal and it's open season! I would rather do new designs, but I would most rather have a flourishing business. Call back customers, go the extra mile, it's seldom about the price, it's so much more often about the service, And if the service is there, the return on the customer will be there no matter what the disclaimer! Noone wants the tire kickers anyway! And on another note, when another company recently opened up in the area he received a few courtesy calls from a few of us existing companies, with some advice: Don't steal artwork, and don't give away your work, we can all work together for a competitive price structure. New companies sometimes need that advice, and for better or worse, it will at least be in the back of their mind. If done nicely, it creates a better network of Professionals, and keeps pricing structures stron, new companies need to buy the pricing guides, not make up prices based on what staples charges!
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
In the "Small-Business" world that most of us operate in, these conflicts will seldom become court cases, and so it remains an individual choice of ethics every time. Recently I was asked to reproduce a handpainted sign of a local signwriter. Good, professional layout and colors. When I asked why I was contacted, the owner of the sign explained that he "wanted to give me a chance". Yeah, right. I quoted a high ballpark figure, and said I would be changing the design or not do it. He never came back; and it hurt to lose that potential income, but I was relieved at the same time. Here's the point: Personally, I would hate to see a sign out there that I have created, copied by someone else, wouldn't you? Be honest. How would you feel about it, if you had copied it and bumped into the other signmaker afterwards... Funny thing here is, the less we have invested in time and "blood, sweat and tears", the less it would matter. A copied truck door design would not bother me half as much. We are trying to nail things down with contracts and agreements, but is that good enough? In the above case, there was likely nothing on paper that would have made it illegal to copy the other design, so would that have made it right? This could be a good point to bring the "Letterhead" thing into the equation, does a certain business ethic come with being a Letterhead? Sorry, for complicating things
posted
This is completely off the original point of this post but it relates to being paid for logos so here's the deal..
Giving the rights to the artwork to the customer is OK, IF and ONLY if they paid for the rights.. or if the person that did the artwork doesn't value their time/talent and didn't charge squat.
There are lots of people here and in the graphic design field that don't "get it", and let a logo go for $20, $30, $60 or whatever time they have into the design.
A $60 design job does not grant the customer rights to reproduce the artwork, unless the artist just doesn't care. On the flip side, a $60 design fee on a set of magnetics kinda negates the whole reason customers decide to use magnetics so I wouldn't spend the time unless the customer OK's the extra expense.
Now if the customer pays $200, $300, $600, $1200, $20,000 for the package I'd consider that to be enough to grant repro rights. Price depends on the market and the type of company of course, plus YOUR reputation. In a rural area your local Jim of "Jim's Plumb Crazy" (he's a plumber, get it? hehe) probably isn't going to have a whole lotta cash to spend on logo design, so he might just have to be satisfied with some stock lettering and clipart. In my opinion that does not qualify as "artwork" covered under any copyright law, anyone can type words using stock fonts and the clipart is already under copyright by the originators/clipart publisher. In a larger city there's more potential for income and it's also easy for a business to get lost, so a highly visible and recognizeable image is definitely worth way more than what Mr. Plumb Crazy paid. Your reputation plays into account as well. No matter where you are, if your business is known for creating effective, professional logos/images that bring in recognition and sales, and everyone knows before going in that your work is not cheap but is also WORTH it, it will be easier to make those types of sales.
People do not go to Mercedes or BMW expecting to miraculously find a cheap car somewhere. They know they're getting a solid machine and are willing to pay extra to get it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never said they couldn't purchase the logo. They can, and then I would quote a fair price. But, for the guy who wants a set of mags, I seriosly could notchge300-400 for them. For instance, this guy last week came in, just wanted a boring set of mags. I spent quite a bit of time on them, thought they were great, was wanting to know how much van lettering was in the future, told him the price. Yah, maybe I'm locking them in to come back to me, but there is soany shoppers out there, I need to protect. I told him the price of design, the price of mags, he chose to pay for the mags, and a box of business cards, and sign my "peice of paper", saying it was mine. He was actually a referal, from someone else, so I do have quality, blah, blah.
-------------------- Becky Olson The Sign Says 342 Kelley St. Manchester, NH 03102 603-622-6722 thesignsays@aol.com Posts: 6 | From: Manchester, NH | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Becky, What about a sign company who has gone out of business? Are you now expected to pay royalties to his family? There has got to be some statute of limitations on design ownership. If I had a dollar for every sign shop that came and went, I wouldn't need to work,(I'd still want to!) yes most of them stank in the first place, but there are also old timers who got out of the business, died or retired and some I've heard of who actually had to leave town! I respect that you are trying to not limit your creativity based upon a customers where-withal, but let's face it, a large majority of start-ups don't last, and where does that leave you with your design fee float? It's not like you are going to recycle the design on someone else...And wouldn't you prefer to see a consistent reproduction of the design you created on their t-shirts, ect...I don't normally charge hundreds of dollars for a logo, but I do get a reasonable payment for time spent on it and kiss it goodbye...customers rarely question it, it's part of being in business. But you know what, after all my blah blah, I say whatever works for you is right for you! Thanks for the feedback!
-------------------- Stacey Jones Tilton Signworks 4 Ash Drive Tilton, NH 03276 Posts: 19 | From: Tilton, New Hampshire | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Becky, exactly.. You work out a design for him and he choses to let you retain ownership of the artwork because he doesn't want to pay for it right now, he just wants his mags (or other form of signage) done right now. I don't see anything wrong with that concept at all except there was no design fee, but hey, it's not like I haven't done that in the past.
Later down the road if he wants rights to the artwork he can pay for them, until then you own it and if he has your work duplicated you have his signature basically saying "You have the OK to sue me and I know it."
Companies like Harley Davidson and Ford spend BIG MONEY to have other companies maintain control over their corporate identity and artwork, we're basically providing the SAME service, at a lower cost.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I disagree. We are not OT at all. It all relates. Too many primadonnas over estimate their logo designs and want a blank check for their copywrite usage in related products. I'll just keep doing things ethically. It's worked for us so far.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Copyrights are retained by the original artist if he has dated proof of original design. If he sells artwork to customer then the customer can seek any other artist he desires. If I design a logo and seal a dated copy, whether hand drawn or computer aided, I retain the copyright and would win in court.
Trademarks belong to companies, but must be re-registered every 7 years I believe.
MC
-------------------- Mike Clayton M C Grafix Custom Lettering New Jersey (again) Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not qutie true. You don't need to date a piece to retain copyright. The date is only used to determine when the copyright will expire.
Also, when you sell a design, you're selling (an implied) license to the purchaser to use it for their business. This is NOT the same as just selling them lettering on their truck (for instance). In the case of the truck lettering, you have not given them rights to reproduce your design.
This is why it is good (for your customer and you) to charge a fee for logo/art/design that is broken out on the invoice from the price on producing the actual sign. ("$10 for logo design and $15 for decal" for instance).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic