I just finished coating a sign using reflex blue 1 shot lettering enamel. It is aprox 3'x4'.
Instead of laying vinyl letters on it I would like to paint them using 1 shot lettering white, a vinyl mask and a roller. There will be no outlines or drop shadows to hide inconsistencies if the mask isn't strong on the edges.
Can regular vinyl be used as a mask instead of the "masking vinyl". Is there a difference in the tack. I'm a little worried that the vinyl will stick a little too good and damage the finish while being removed.
Also, It is recommended to pull the mask off before the paint cures. This leads to the question of the white paint covering properly and possibly needing a second coat. Would it be better to brush in the letters a little heavier instead of rolling them? Should I add a little other color (which one) to help coverage? Metallic Gold will be the third color used for the border, ornaments and finials.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm not set against using the vinyl lettering but thought this would be a great opportunity to try something new (old, hehe).
Is this stuff fun or what!?
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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I'd use the paint mask. That's what it is made for. Don't mess with using vinyl instead.
You'll actually get a better coat on the letters with a roller than you would with a brush. I think you'll be able to get good coverage using a roller over the blue background.
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Alan, sweetie... In my humble opinion, I would pen-plot the design on paper, then trace it on the back with a white Stabilo, (tape the paper to a sunny window to trace, or just pen-plot in mirror mode and go over that w/a Stabilo) add straight registration lines to the sign using 3M pinstriping tape, lightly dampen the sign, put the pen-plot Stabilo-side down, & rub with a squeegee. Add more straight lines as needed or cheat with more 3M tape to get a crispedge on the copy. Letter away, my good man. No pouncing, no chalk, no mess. (I learned this trick from Catherine Foster of Scotland) I tried the roller method with paint mask...once. I knew it was too easy. When I pulled up the mask, 75% of the 1-Shot came up, too. I had to re-paint with a quill,which I had been trying to avoid in the first place. I have used cheapo vinyl successfully as a paint mask on a vehicle, but I fear it would have far too much tack for a panel coated with 1-Shot. Good Luck, Duude! Love- JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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The only time I've had the mask lift the background was when the panel wasn't properly prepared first. As long as it was primed/sanded, wiped clean then coated out, there shouldn't be any problem. I've done this MANY times without failure. Infact, I just used this method on the Letterville panel I'm finishing up today. Worked great!
I'm working on the same type of thing here, except my letters fade from white to yellow. I coated the whole background with the white to yellow fade, then I will mask the letters out, paint the whole background dark green, then remove the mask. I figure its easier to get the coverage over the white, than to try to cover one coat of white over a dark background.
Good luck, and have a great weekend.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mask is OK if you are real sure of your base color being stuck down. It does have a lot less tack than vinyl, but is risky at best.
This probably has more to do with how long the base color has been allowed to dry---mask too soon and it's headache city. Wait too long, and there may be an adhesion problem with your lettering paint.
If you're dead set on this, give your base color at least 2 days drying time, put down the mask, then wipe the areas to be lettered with a deglosser. Don't get too rough with this stuff. One coat of white rolled or foam brush applied should do it. I wouldn't add anything to the white for better coverage. Remove the mask before the white has cured. Not still wet, just dry to the touch.
FWIW
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Thanks for the replies and the vote of confidence. It all sounds so easy ...but I think I'm going to practice this one first. Set up a couple of sample pieces using all of the same materials.
Sooo...Vinyl letters maybe more of a sure thing for now, but the fun part will be painting the border stripe and the ornaments. Cool deal!
Terry and Sue, I will give your methods a try but I guess it would be foolish to experiment on the customers time and at my expense if something went wrong.
Bill, thanks for the heads up! More drying time does sounds like a winner. The thought of peeling the base coat up or even damaging the letters like in Jill's case scares the b-jeezus outa my wallet.
Jill, have you tried the Saral tracing paper for what you are describing? It works pretty good for a clean tracing method. Just not sure about the steady brush hand. (30+ letters with serifs, 2 sided...woohdoggie!) You're a wild woman! In due time, the lettering skills will be there.
Practice, practice, practice. Still have a long way to go figuring much of this out but need to start somewhere, thanks for all of your help!
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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I've made a pounce pattern, then used transfer tape for mask. Works especially well for roller blended letters that are outlined!
Put the mask over the lettering area then pounce the pattern (I sometimes went over it with pencil if there was a chance for me to accidently erase the pounce powder LOL!).
Cut the pattern accordingly (not too hard to cut into the paint underneath), weed the areas to be painted, then paint, rollerblend whatever.
Outlines work great in case any booboos happen.
I've also done this for panels, where the background color shows through as the lettering.
-------------------- Dana Ferry St Cloud, MN Posts: 1556 | From: St Cloud, MN | Registered: May 1999
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Without knowing what your lettering/layout looks like, I am wondering if you have ever tried the tape along the top and bottom of each line of copy. Fine line works well, a little less sticky than scotch tape, and less risk of pulling your base color.
Serif letters can be tough to render, especially if on the small side. Tape at top/bottom can make life a lot easier. Just go back in after pulling the tape and round the tops and bottoms of the rounded letters e.g. the "s" "o" "q" and so forth. The tape method also allows a more heavily loaded brush, since you are not squaring up at top and bottom--- and you can rotate the brush a bit at the bottom of the strokes to start the serif, then pull straight down into the tape. At the top, start to one side of the vertical stroke, pull down, then slide the brush sideways, and arc into the vertical. Easy serifs.
FWIW, and I will send a bill on the first of the month.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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It's been a while. Great idea, Thanks. When I'm writing out Mr. Preston's check do you want one too?
Thanks again Bill, I still owe you one from last year for getting me over the hump with the airbrush stuff. Do you want one big check or two little ones?
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan, you're supposed to experiment on the clients time! How we gonna learn anything?, close up shop & become an apprentice?, no just go for it Well, at least on this one, thats my opinion. Buy the real paint mask, it's very much less tacky, & you will use it more once you have it. Go with the 2 days curing time on the reflex blue One Shot (SueLynns method would have been my choice too... paint white first, mask, & paint Blue later, but too late now) then mask & roll. I have done this often with good crisp edges & never the slightest concern of damage to background finish.
posted
I hear ya Doug! Earn while you learn turns into f' around and pay quick sometimes. lol. One concern I have is the primer/substrate. It is Ben Moore acrylic, the board is MedEx.(sp) Never really used the stuff before and not sure what to expect. Usually use the vinyl/aluminum route with wood backing.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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But at most times you will get a Surprise! I like control on the fading..(Outlook)
1.Panel White...(Buff and Scuff first) 2.Trans-Mask or Paint Mask..Graphics, Hand cut or Plotter cut. 3.Background painted coverage first. 4.Curing time!! Pull mask when you have done a knuckle test. 5.Ok Sorry!!!!!!! I meant curing time!!!!!! 1 hour to 2. maybe longer,
With Blue.... I still let it stand longer than that. Panel drying time 24-48 hours Re Apply outline mask(Hand Cut Trans or Plotter cut and Roller/Airbrush away!!
[ October 17, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I can't recall the last time someone mentioned using Scotch tape! (makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ) One thing that I do is to stick it to my shirt a couple of times to 'ease the tack' a bit. This is probably a no brainer to some, just thought that I'd share.
Medex has a reputation as being a disaster in waiting. Composite something or other board that absorbs water and swells to hell and gone---according to the search thing and other people's experience. Didn't seem to matter much how well it was prepared.
Medex/interior use /maybe. Medex/exterior use/ RUN, do not walk to the nearest exit.
No personal experience with it, so take it fwiw.
[ October 17, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Alan-I use paint mask all the time. I just ordered two 50 yard x 24" rolls. Don't be affraid of it. Let your background dry for 3 or 4 days then apply your mask. Paint the letters and peel the mask. Don't leave the mask on to long. Good luck.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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Hey Allen;good to see you painting.The only time that you should worry is when you thin the paint.use straight paint and it shouldn't creep under the mask.I like to wait at least 10 minutes before removing the mask.
[ October 17, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Randy Campbell ]
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Alan, To answer your original question: Paint mask and roller should work just fine. What sends a chill down my spine is your use of "Medex" as a substrate. Bill Preston is right on target! You're flirting with disaster.
The Medford Corp. plant that makes the stuff is about 30 miles from me, and as result some of the shops in my area were the first to use Medex as a sign substrate. After about a year, I noticed that some of my signs were starting to "blow up" from exposure to weather. By two years, all were showing signs of swelling and by three years, virtually all the Medex signs I had made, failed and had to be replaced. The only exception were a few signs that were installed in a sheltered area. (ea: under an awning or marquee) It was a very expensive lesson for me and the rest of the shops that had used it. There have been quite a few threads here on the BB about Medex and I don't know of anyone that has had success with it.
It also has a second drawback, in that something in the glue is very corrosive to metal fasteners. The material itself also seems to have a tendency to rot away around fasteners. I know of at least one sign that fell down because the "deck screws" it was mounted with, simply rusted away.
-------------------- Jerry Mathel Retired Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Alan, I've been using Oracal paint mask for quite some time now with no problems. I let painted panels dry for at least 2 days before masking. I also include direct sunlight in that 2 day drying time. I just recently was told that applying vinyl over 1-shot is a no-no. I never had a problem but am curious why this reliable publication made this statement. Anyway good luck and I agree with the gentleman that wrote "practice on their time..." Paicer
posted
Thanks for the heads up on the materials Bill and Jerry.
The warnings are making me think of trying to go get the mdo or one of the other substrates and doing it right from the beginning. 35 bucks or so on the materials used and it didn't really take much time painting, will be cheaper than having this thing poop the bed in a year. It did get 3 coats of primer and 2 coats of paint though. Might make a nice table.
Thanks for the help everyone, plenty of good tips above, just need to master the techniques. hehe. Starting with the right materials will help. Live and learn.
Hey Paicer, welcome to the board. Got your call and will be around all day. Come on up.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hi Alan, How about all that help? One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the weight of the Medex. Boy, if it should fall, it would be a lot heavier than any other material. Hang it well.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Alan, I have used Intermediate vinyl for a mask with no trouble. What I do is is outline the letters I want to paint 1/2". Now all you have is a 1/2" of mask to remove! To fill in voids, I use Release tape. Also, if you use Paint Mask, I would brush the paint along all the edges and let it set up. Then I would roll on the color. Rolling tends to "push" paint under the mask.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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i just last week finished some 10x5's and some 1'x3's which were sprayed aluminum which i masked some of the smaller letters, traced some of the bigger ones and taped up the straight lines and then went at it all with a brush. one shot with hardener and me wearing a filtered mask suitable for nuclear war!
just hand painted all the big round letters and with straight ones i painted and peeled the tape as i went. with the mask you give it some time to set up. maybe 20 minutes and then peel. it's messy and takes some skill to get it right but you do eventually. i'll post some pictures this week of the finished work.
-------------------- Miles Cullinane, Cork, Ireland.
From the sometimes sunny south of Ireland, Posts: 913 | From: Cork, Ireland | Registered: Jul 1999
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Its 1/2" Bill, which will help keep the weight down using 4 of the U-brackets from Scenectady to hold the panel in place. Do you think additional support will be needed.
The edge trick sounds good Tony considering the finish isn't glass like.
Thanks Miles, send a link, would like to see some pics of your work.
-------------------- Alan Ackerson LetterWorks Design and Graphics alan@ack2.com Posts: 776 | From: Oak Ridge, NJ | Registered: Aug 2002
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...but I think I'm going to practice this one first. Set up a couple of sample pieces using all of the same materials.
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Live and learn.
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