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A small graphics shop in my area that did mostly printing, copying, and laminating has gotten into doing banners, corplast, etc. I have needed some quotes on laminating and so we have been talking more and more. Recently she has been calling me to quote jobs that are way to big for her-nothing has materalized yet. Today she called and wanted to know about making a sign out of alumalite and how to do it. I told her this time but I don't know how much more I will help her as some of these jobs might come my way. How far would you go to help a newbie?
[ October 13, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I sell digital to my competitors AT RETAIL.....I am not in the WHOLESALE business. My competitors in turn mark up whatever I charge them. My"help" to my competition offers them a convenience NOT at my expense.
I don't know what kind of community and or surrounding area you live in but, generally I think that if someone is interested enough, sincerly, I would help them. If there in competition with you then you have to think about it. My thought is, if I can teach you what I know (within reason that is) and how to price it, that's a plus for us both or at minimum better than you low balling me and confusing the customers. This way there are two "teaching" your customers what they need. Not one High Shop (that does great work!) and one new Cheap Shop (that does cheap work) but the customers are never trained for the better work cause they run for PRICE! So, get'em up to your level (or close) and there's probably enough business for you both!
Good luck with it.....
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hi Laura... You in the teacher's union? Teachers make pretty good money...... Keep it business as usual...but turn that free knowledge thing off before it gets out of hand
You have to establish whether this person is out to steal business at any cost, or if they're interested in making money and not lowballing.
Luckily, my "competitors" are all on the same page - get as much $$$ as possible.. 'cept for one guy that's lowballing everyone but this is a small town and I hear from several sources he can't pay any of his bills.
We freely exchange ideas and knowledge, just like letterheads do here.. don't forget, all of us on this bulletin board are in competition with each other, but most of us are in the same mindset.
We help each other out - sourcing work to each other when things are too busy or beyond our capabilities. I do artwork and help out on vinyl applications, I use them when I have jobs that require larger sizes than my 15" plotter can handle or just as a source for material when I need some in a pinch.
We even talk business, compare pricing on certain jobs to "see what page we're on" and getting ideas on how to handle certain situations.
Basically, we do everything that Letterheads do on this very site everyday, 'cept we're only 5 minutes from each other. There's no reason you cannot help your "competitor" but be sure of her intentions, whether they're to weasel you out of work or to seriously add another profitable service to her business.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I try to send as much work to my competition as I can. I send them real estate sign and the type of jobs that I don't want to do. If I can keep them loaded with that stuff, they're too busy to mess with the stuff I want to attract.
As far as teaching them, let them pay the dues like everyone else does. They can come take you to lunch and ask questions. They can go to trade shows. They can subscribe to trade journals. They can find their own suppliers. You can tell them about meets and magazines and be real friendly without just handing them all you know and have.
We value things we pay for.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Around here we have some "friendly" shops, and some "not-so-friendly".
If a friendly shop calls asking advice, they usually try to offer up a tip or trick they have come across recently in return. We send jobs to each other when we're too busy, or if the sign just fits their shop better than it would ours.
I have noticed that the "not-so-friendly" shops are generally the same ones that underbid you to get jobs. These guys usually aren't worth your time.
When it comes to them not knowing basic stuff like how to do vinyl on alumilite, I would suggest that they contact their supplier and ask them the best methods for the materials they are using. Let them do the homework on that stuff, they should have looked into that before jumping into the sign biz.
-------------------- Joe Endicott NEXCOM (Navy Exchange Service Command) Signing Programs Specialist Virginia Beach, VA jeendicott@msn.com
"I want to be Stereotyped....I want to be Classified." Posts: 681 | From: Virginia Beach, VA USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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I had a guy who always called me for a price because his "plotter just took a crap" Then I would see letters he cut himself on a window somewhere.
Later, he called me to sell me his inventory because he was quitting. I bought his stuff, and 60 days later, he was competing with me again. So, last time he called, I told him to call another shop.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3503 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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There is a difference between a competitor and a complimentary business arrangement. We send work to other businesses who send us work if our processes or abilities do not clash. As to knowledge and processes , I worked hard and paid my "school fees" for them so don't give it out chapter and verse to anyone who could remotely be a threat to me. I do as BOB does , quote my competitors retail prices and will also quote the same if their customer comes to me - however I DON'T directly approach the competitors customer EVER (unless the competitor screws me) I DO send problem customers to my competitors - rather make em their problems. I dont subscribe to the maxim "there's enough business to go round" and do my utmost to protect my markets and customers that I have invested time and money in , from my competitors.
We often get sample and quote requests from other companys that do what I do and I WILL quote , however if no jobs consistently arise from those quotes - I stop. The same with sampling - I do a sample on acceptance of a quote and if no job arises from the sample (due to no fault of our own) I charge 20x the unit price quoted for each sample and for each revision as well as any artwork fees. I am not prepared to do the legwork for some other place to undercut me and to press the "print" button!!
There really is no point in "helping" a competitor , you only cut your own throat - even if you may need your competitors services to help a customer at some time, it's most likely that your job does not enjoy the priority or care that would be lavished by your competitor if your customer was theirs. Far better to decline than to be at someone who does NOT have your interest at heart's mercy. I know of co's that have deliberately delayed or in some way messed up a competitors job to get the customer to come to them. At the end , you cant tell your customer that their job was messed up or not done by "your competitor", you take the heat!!! You will also often find that jobs your competitor sends you cos of "equipment failures" or "being too busy" are ultra urgent , and you have em like an albatross around your neck at the expense of your own higher paying customers - apart from which they get a pretty good idea of your pricing. Rather nip the small graphics shops hopes of becoming a sign shop in competiton with you in the bud than have to deal with a FAR larger problem some time down the line.
There is no expectation or obligation on you to help "newbies" , especially those that have't done their homework, to enter your local market and take business away from you. I know this sounds hard , but I have 25 staff that rely on me to pay their salaries and to support their families , they are loyal to me and in return I have to consider THEM first rather than being a nice guy within the local industry.
-------------------- Rodney Gold Toker Bros Posts: 57 | From: South Africa | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sharing knowledge with the competition is fine as long as there is a mutual respect that it won't be taken advantage of. If you feel this person is crossing that line, go with your feelings.
Many of my race car customers have gone to vinyl lettering over the years. A few have even bought thier own plotters and, as a result, started sign businesses over the years and become what we here in Letterville would define as "quicky sticky shops". Occasionally, they contact me looking for advice about how to do airbrushing, a little painting or for some original artwork they need. Some call when they are in over thier heads on a project. I've never felt the were doing anything but trying to improve what they do. They want to earn a good living, no different than I do. But I do draw the line when it's someone trying to use the information to undercut my business.
It's okay to share your wealth of knowledge, but sometimes the "school of hard knocks" can help some people learn as much or more. When giving free advice costs you income, it stops being "free".
Just a few thoughts... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hi Laura... I try to be nice to everybody. I am dear friends with a shopowner 10 miles up the road who has 3 shops within 2 miles of him. We both have subbed out work to each other, and he is a great guy. I turned him on to the Letterheads in 2000. I refer work to him whenever I go on vacation. There is another shop, near him, with whom I used to associate with, we even did a gilding workshop up there one Christmas. But he never cared about the Letterheads...he was satisfied to do things on his own. I stopped referring jobs to him after 2 customers complained that he didn't show up for estimates as scheduled. I hate when a fellow sign maker had told a customer that "She charges too much." Then I have some explaining about my products and abilities...which I hate, becuase being in business 18 years now, it sucks to have to justify myself to a price-shopper. A print place just went in a mile up the road last spring. They have a coro sign, lacking negative space, that says "MAGNETICS $35/set"(red helvetica, o'course...) I get my printing done there, and I have seen their work. I don't enlighten them about Letterheads, because I feel that they are a cut-throat competitor. They don't care about bettering themselves, they are after the cold hard green stuff. I don't consider myself expert enough to give any great advice, but I save what little I know for meets, when someone comes up and says, "how do you do that little spinny-thing with your brush at the end of a stroke?" So I would use your gut feelings about imparting your hard-earned wisdom to competitors and try to do it in moderation...the next job they do may be your own. Love- JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Hiya Laura, I'm with Mike and Ray on this one. And, judging from the type of shop it is, they should know the value of good design and workmanship. I beleive in sharing knowledge. The industry as a whole can benefit from it. It's very important to teach the value of signs while you're teaching the mechanics of the business too. That being said, if these requests start cutting into your bottom line, maybe you should charge her a consultation or training fee.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just ask yourself "What's the difference between helping a newbie through letterhead.com, and helping a newbie that's in your town?"
Nothing.
We're all competitors here, although we may be thousands of miles away there are a number of us selling jobs in other Letterheads' towns through websites so "competition" is very real. We're just in the same mindset of not undercutting to buy work.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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