posted
I am going to use Sign gold layered over Avery A8 vinyl on a truck this week. Is it necessary to edge seal the Sign gold? If so, why? How do you do it? I do have a fresh edge sealing pen, but have never used it. Any tips you can offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Diane Balch
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Dianne...I like Roger and his products but trust me....DON'T use application fluid to apply SignGold. If you have to "prick" a bubble to release some RapidTac (because SignGold does NOT breathe like regular cast vinyl) you might be leaving yourself open to problems with fluids seeping between layers of the material at the puncture point.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Those sealing pens suck. Too messy and unweidly. We use FJ (not that enough sign people use it to warrant advertising here, eh?) and a brush. It only takes a little bit to seal the edge. You can also cover the whole graphic if you so choose.
If you don't seal the edges, they will seperate. Sign Gold is not the product that it tounted to be. I use it but it is begrudgingly.
The machine turns look fake, the big turns are too big and the small are too small, it will peel apart, and the expense is well, just that... very freaking expensive.
If it wasn't for the fact that I have several clients that we used to do hand done gold for and they really, really like the removability of vinyl, I wouldn't even buy it.
I have several samples of the Coburn film that we edge sealed and have stuck in a secret outdoor area to see how it holds up to whatever abuse Mother Nature can heap upon it. We have a SignGold sample right next to it. So far, I see no difference. Only time is going to tell.
I do have a problem with a product that spends more time telling the buying public how crappy their competition is rather than bragging about about how good they are.
Maybe that is the future of advertising. It is going to go the way of political campaigns. Never mind what a jerk off I am, it is my opponent that is a real sleaze bag....
Just my opinion.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I trided an edge seal pen on the flourentine gold and quit after 2 inches. The felt tip catches on the little swirly edges. So I din't seal it at all. Four years later on my truck and 2 years on a sign with no problems so far. I won't know how long my truck job will last because I'm going to change it.
Roger, I occasionally get bubbles using your application fluid. Sometimes I think it's because I'm rushing, sometimes it may be a squeege that should be pitched, sometimes it just happens and I don't know why.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I have applied sign gold without edge seal on some jobs without any problems and on other jobs I have sealed the edges. The manufacture recommends edge sealing, I suspect if you ever have a failure, your warrantee would be void if the sign gold was not edge sealed. I agree that sign Gold is not one of those products that you can apply wet, It wont breath and any moisture left behind wont evaporate.
posted
Dave S. sometimes people get bubbles when using R.T because they feel "conservative" is the best practise.
Actually when you flood the surfase you have better results all the way around, the adhesive is stimulated by R.T and therfore dosn't care how wet it gets, but if you "sparingly" spritz a bit, thats when bubbles will happen.
"Spritzing just a little", allows air between the small droplets of fluid, now when you lay the vinyl over this it TRAPS the air (sandwiched between the liquid/vinyl/substrate), makeing a mental picture? Its hard to describe, I truly hope I made it understandable.
As for Sign Gold and wet applications, use R.T.II "FLOOD" the substrate,apply the gold, "squeegee firmly", there shouldn't be enough fluid to matter after that!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Dianne, I recently talked to a SignGold tech and he assured me that nothing will stick to the tedlar clear laminate that's on SignGold and that only the edges must be sealed. But I suspect SignGold will not warranty their material if you don't seal the edges. So far I haven't had a problem with the laminate separating. I have been sealing the edges with One Shot's Sealit pen. I find the felt tip to be a problem at times. Has anyone used Frog Juice to seal the edges? I have several SignGold jobs to do and I wonder if Frog Juice applied with a brush will do the job? Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just out of curiosity... how are we suppose to edge seal something that nothing will stick to? Hmmmmmmm?
We have had SignGold separate on us, even after edge sealing. We were basically given a brush off by our supply house and told we had to deal with SignGold direct.
When I talked to A SignGold rep, he told me that I was wrong, that the stuff is the best thing sliced bread. Of course he is being paid to hawk the stuff.
I expected a better response from a manufacterer, to be perfectly honest. I have bad dreams about what other jobs are going to fail because of the material on the roll we had.
A word of prevention... keep a sample from every roll of SignGold you buy. That way you can have an actual piece of the material you used.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
OK..this post came in on the weekend, so I'm late getting to it.
YES Diane, you need to seal SignGold. For warranty reasons, you should use 1Shot 4005 clear. Applying it with a brush will give you better coverage, but the Seal-It pen works. This prevents not only the possibility of delamination, but it prevents outside contaminants from being drawn in by the adhesive. (SignGold uses a VERY aggressive adhesive..if you've ever tried to remove any, you know what I mean.) You can apply it wet, but just use your application fluid sparingly, as SignGold (a PVF Vinyl) does NOT have the minutely poreous surface that most (PVC) based high performance vinyls have. The silver products MUST be applied dry.
Roger Bailey...don't purvey knowledge you don't possess. Giving out the wrong information is worse than keeping your mouth shut. I don't use every third post here as an opportunity to push SignGold..maybe you should consider what the ramifications could end up being. Do YOU want to replace Diane's material if it fails because of your bad advice?
Bruce..here's the answer to your question. Essentially, nothing is going to stick to Tedlar. When you edge seal, the 1Shot is gripping onto the surface that you're sealing TO...and it's also permiating the edge of the material. The little bit that is being laid up on TOP of the Tedlar, and it should be just a little bit, is actually going to adhere to itself at that point.
Frog Juice may indeed work, but our testing has shown that the 1shot UV clear (4005) holds up.
If ANYONE every has any questions about the use of SignGold products, please feel free to call their tech line from 8-5:30 (Eastern time), Monday - Friday. 585-415-7496. This number, as well as many other helpful tips and usefull information can always be found at www.SignGold.com
On a side note; yes, many Signgold applications are still holding up like gangbusters after 6, 7 and 8 years WITHOUT edge-sealing, but extensive QUV weatherometer chamber testing has proven that edge-sealing decreases the chance of a failure, therefore, it's required for warranty.
Keep on keepin on, Brian Briskie on behalf of the Signgold Corporation
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Bruce...after re-reading your post..just a couple more points.
And let me preface this for everyone else that Bruce is a friend, and someone for whom I hold a great deal of respect.
In terms of the cost of SignGold..it was never meant to compete with other vinyls, it was meant to compete with the gilding market.
In terms of product bashing, I generate Signgold's advertising, and we've never said word one about the Coburn line, so I'm guessing that what you were talking about the Coburn ads when they compared themselves to us, or the article that Butch Anton wrote in SignBuilder earlier this year.
And finally, you can not cover the entire surface...any clear will just peel off eventually leaving you with a mess.
SignGold knows it's not a replacement for hand gilding. They never claimed to be. I still advise people almost weekly that certain applications should still be hand gilded. I still lay gold a few times a month in my own shop. It's just an option for people that don't want to gild. Oddly enough, it was the traditional gilders that first embraced SignGold as a product line.
I'll see ya soon Bruce
Keep on keepin on
Brian
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I believe that God offers a special grace to the ignorant. I've been painting 1-Shot on Sign Gold since the product first appeared. I've seen no failures of the paint sticking to the tedlar. Now that I've been informed that it will not work, I probably will never be able to get away with it again. I often seal the edges with an outline of 1-shot.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bruce, I'm in your camp. I'm not too trusting of their claims OR their warranties. I bought some of the stuff when it first came out. I used it on some Todd Hanson style graphics on my wifes car. It started to seperate after six months. A paying customer would have been easier to deal with I called SignGold, told them of the problem and was informed I had used the first version ( which was supposed to have a fourteen year life span, by the way ) and that they had a new product that was much better...would I like to purchase a roll?????? That was it, there was no warranty offer at all. To their credit, I have used the new stuff and it seems like it is holding up OK...does make me nervous though.
Nice job Rick
[ October 06, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hi Diane.... I hope your job went well. Rick, I loved the "rustic" look...too cool. Brian...Interestingly enough, the fire police vehicle that I did last February using both SignGold & Edge-printed PA state seals on HP reflective Calon II...well, the SignGold is holding up fine unsealed, but the reflective that I sealed w/spray 1-Shot UV clear is lifting around the edges...Guess I will have to slap on a black outline w/1-Shot. See ya at Pioneer's show. Need to buy 2 starter kits as soon as I get my check from the F.D. love-JILL ps: Roger, I get bubbles no matter what I do, that's why I try to paint whenever I can, but Rapid Tac smells wonderful.
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'm sorry Brian, didn't realize you were so interested in how I post, also didn't realize you have some authority on rules of posting on this site.
As for Dianes warantee, yes, if her job fails due to my advise, I will pay for it.
Thanks for your advise Brian, always a pleasure.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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The goal of my reply to you has nothing to do with the rules of this site. It WAS meant to imply that if you DON'T know the answer to a given question, you might consider not answering it.
You flat-out gave Diane BAD ADVICE. What's more, you gave her bad advice about a product that I assume some responsibility for.
Nothing personal.
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Brian was NOT the SignGold rep that I had dealt with in the past. Brian does possess knowledge of his product. I have NO beef what-so-ever with Brian. He is too cool to mad at, anyways...
When's the next party, Bro? Maybe we can get Boone to bring his potato salad again...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
My SignGold experience has been interesting. I recently had a serious problem with tunneling on the border of a glass door 12"x18" reverse shiny SignGold job.
I contacted Brian who put me in touch with SignGold tech Larry Hoppe. Larry felt terrible his product didn't perform to expectations and has gone all-out to track down the problem with daily communication. I redo the job later this week and he is "holding my hand". I'm very pleased and impressed with SignGold's concern for the proper performance of their product. He gave me these valuable tips pertaining to the reverse gold:
-The adhesive is acrylic and can be affected by water-based products (like RapidTac) if too much is used.
-If the SignGold tunnels at any time prior to application IT WILL NEVER STICK at that point.
-Use a very sharp or new blade in the cutter.
-Cut deep and clean. The heavy plastic liner can withstand it.
-------------------- Mark Casey Casey Sign Co., Inc. Berkley, MI Posts: 76 | From: Berkley, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Brian, "Roger gave bad advise" thats your opinion, my opinion is different, on that we agree.
As I said, if her job fails from following my advise I will pay the costs, I have applied your product many times and had no failures, worked with Larry Mitchell back when he was associated with Sign Gold ( 6-8 years ago?) ,he openly stated to me "you can't get this stuff on flatt without a wet application", and that was his opinion.
But, thats my opinion, and I have ALWAYS taken responsibility for it! We have never had anyone call and inform us of any failures due to using our product or method when applying Sign Gold, I'm certain that many Rapid Tac users are applying Sign gold wet.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
thank you for the advice. A do most applications of any vinyl dry so that I don't get bubbles. How long should i let the one shot clear dry before letting the customer have his truck back? I do have frog juice, I know that dries quickly. I will be doing the job on Wednesday morning,
Diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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The One Shot UV clear dries just about as fast as FJ does. No need to add hardner.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Tunnelling, that's a whole other problem I've not seen addressed yet. I see it with no other product. I've had that happen numerous times with the reverse glass version. It really messes things up when you have outlines to register. I've been back to re squeegee many times and have certainly needed to replace it a few times and feel bad needing to apologize to customers for the problems with the product.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Rick, (and everyone else). SignGold can't offer any help with a problem, unless you let them know that you're HAVING the problem.
If anyone has any concerns or questions...PLEASE take advantage of our technical assistance phones.
I carry a phone from 8am - 5:30pm, Eastern Time, Monday thru Friday. It's 585-425-7496. I handle all of SignGold's "surface gild products" (engine turned, florentine, satin, miragold, etc) questions.
Larry Hoppe, in Ohio (513-257-6270), addresses all questions regarding SignGold's specialty films (reverse glass gild, thermal printable) during those same hours.
Additionally, the answer to many of these questions can be found at SignGold's website, www.SignGold.com
And last but certainly not least; read the instruction sheet. As a sign shop owner, I know that I'd be inclined to read whatever directions came with material that I just spent $40.00 per yard on.
Mark, I'm glad that Larry's helping you out. I was sure he could when I refered you to him. Larry's a great guy, and very knowledgible. Rick, give Larry a call, and I'm sure he can guide you through whatever processes you need assistance with.
Thanks again everyone,
Keep on keepin' on,
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
We use Sign Gold quite a lot, and have had concerns about all the issues mentioned here.
The most significant has been the question of sealing the edges, which has been thouroughly discussed here. (thank you all!)
I would like to see a sealed edge job that looks good, however. It's hard to add a step in the process that turns a great looking job into a poor one.
Our second biggest issue has been applying SignGold wet. We did this in desparation once and found it was the key to applying the gold in a way that looks incredible. We still wondoer why SignGold says to apply dry, when it is so much easier and looks o much better to apply it wet. We have followed their advice and used water sparingly, and have had excellent results. We'll never apply it dry again.
We have also noticed the tunneling. We have not had to discard product due to this, but this post implies that you should. Is this a sign of defective material? We certainly don't keep extra material laying around at $40 per yard.
Lastly, SignGold needs to update their "Working with Sign Gold" CD. It appears to be in a format so old that none of our computers can play it.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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In regards to your question about the application fluid. I know that in the past, our instruction sheets indicated that the product should be "applied dry, or use application fluid sparingly". This is (was)primarily because Signgold is non-pourous.The concern there, is that while most HP vinyls will allow for some "after installation" dissipation of fluid, that is, application fluids will continue to evaporate out from behind the product, as well as out via the edges; SignGold doesn't. Being non-pourous, nothing will rise through the surface, and inas it's supposed to be edge-sealed, that avenue for evaporation is also closed. So by all means, use application fluids, but do so sparingly. Additionally, application fluids have evolved to everyone's benefit.
As always, it's important that use don't use any application fluids that contain ammonia. (You wouldn't believe the stuff we've seen people apply vinyl with)
On the subject of tunneling.
While standard SignGold is only 1 mil thick, (MiraGold and our other thermal printable materials are slightly thicker) it is a PVF based vinyl, not PVC like most materials. PVF's have entirely different structural and tensile characteristics than do PVCs, and the tunneling is cased by one thing and one thing only: back flexing.
Never backflex SignGold materials. Never store them on cores smaller than the 6.25" core in is shipped on.(this includes storing that left over material on the inside of the core.
And please, if you have any problems or concerns, contact us. It's disheartening for me to see a post like this generate additional posts that say things like "well, the problems that I've had are..."
If we don't know you're having a problem, we can't address it. It's through the feedback that we get from you, our end-users, that allow us to make adjustments and provide a quality product.
Keep on keepin' on,
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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Since I took over as the US/Canadian Tech Rep in May, it has become obvious that there are some problems with that "Working With SignGold" cd. It is, essentially a PowerPoint presentation that isn't running externaly on my systems running XP and ME. I've done some checking, and it is indeed a MicroSoft quirk, and 95% of the time, it can be overcome by loading the contents of the CD into a folder on your C drive, and running it from there.
I'm busy working on a new presentation CD, that should(if all goes according to plan) be ready in a couple of months. I'm really trying...honest.
posted
What percentage of gold is really in SignGold? To date, I've been too much of a purist to put SignGold scraps into my scewing jar. Are they worth saving? I have friends that wear rings made from scewings. Perhaps from the SignGold scraps I could make something......???
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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What do you mean by percentage? The 22 karat gold that is applied to the reverse side of the Tedlar in the manufacturing process, is applied in a gaseous form. The reclaimation process would be pretty much impossible for the average shop. to reclaim the gold, and seperate it from the Tedlar and backing adhesive would be, well...fruitless.
On the plus side, what I do with my SignGold rolls after cutting, is the bit that's left along booth edges where the pinch rollers on my plotter run..I cut those strips, and use them to add stripes around small signs, or use them as "dividers".
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I applied the Signgold dry to Avery A8 pewter gray outline, on a black truck. I sealed the edges with Frog juice using a brush. It came out nice! The customer loved it. I "ve only done few vehicles. This one was fun. Thanks everyone.
On almost everything, I apply vinyl dry.
Diane
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been out of town since the 8th.
In a nutshell, yes. You do want to edge seal SignGold striping if you expect to get the full 10 years out of it. The exception to this, is our "bordered" striping, which is available in 1/2" stripes, in both large engine turn and florentine, and has a 3/16' black trap on either side. This product, used primarily in the fire truck industry, is self-sealing.
I know it's tedious. So is gilding a stripe by hand and then clearing it. SignGold's not so much a shortcut here, as it is a convenience.
If you have any questions, give me a call on the tech line (585-415-7496) Mon-Fri from 8-5:30 eastern time.
Thanks for asking BEFORE you ventured forth.
Regards,
Brian Briskie
Posts: 465 | From: / | Registered: Jan 2000
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I called SignGold, told them of the problem and was informed I had used the first version ( which was supposed to have a fourteen year life span, by the way ) and that they had a new product that was much better...would I like to purchase a roll?????? That was it, there was no warranty offer at all.
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